Proprietary Parts and Why to Avoid Them

how long ago did you join the PBS? also did you check you spam filter?

i just hit My team up they will engage with you today for sure.

sorry not sure what went sideways here :-)

Bill,

Hydropool would not be in the same recommended group for me.

Hydropool sits under the big Jacuzzi group umbrella, along with Jacuzzi, Sundance, Sunrise, and the other related lines. But Hydropool is not the top line in that family. It is lower down the stack.

If you want to compare fairly against a Master Twilight 8.2, you really need to move up into Jacuzzi or Sundance territory.

That is where we are at least talking apples to apples.

Master Twilight gives you the better core build story, hand rolled self supported shell, full foam insulation, good frame, common parts, strong plumbing, and a serious therapy jet package.

Hydropool is more of a thinner acrylic supported shell, lighter insulation system, and more marketing around features than real long term build strength. I would not put it in the same class as Twilight.

The 799 layout is also weird.

Those two side by side loungers make the whole tub awkward. You end up with a big shell that behaves like a tiny three seater with two giant loungers eating all the space.

First time buyers love loungers because we all think like dry land people. On dry land, stretching out sounds great.

In hot water, you float.

Loungers take up a ton of room, and if the fit is off, you fight buoyancy the whole time. Second time buyers almost never buy loungers, and I would be really careful buying two loungers in one tub.

Jetting is not close either.

The Twilight 8.2 has a much more expensive jet package. Better neck and shoulder therapy, better foot and leg jets, and a lot more large high flow therapy jets.

That is what moves muscle mass.

Hydropool uses more of the smaller low flow jets. They can feel busy in a wet test, but they are not the same long term therapy experience.

So no, I would not call the 799 and Twilight 8.2 comparable tubs, and they should not be priced anywhere near each other.

What numbers did you get on both tubs?

Larry,

Calling Platinum Spas a “brand” is a stretch.

This is mostly a rebrand play. They are not a real manufacturer in the way Master, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Artesian, or Hot Spring are. They buy tubs, mostly out of China, put their label on them, redo the certifications, dress up the marketing, and present it like a manufacturer story.

There are loads of these guys now.

And no, the Stargate does not check all the boxes.

It is a cradle supported shell, not a self supported hand rolled shell.

The insulation system is light compared to a proper full foam build.

I am not seeing the plumbing story I want to see either, glued and clamped lines, compression fittings at the shell, and real details on jet body construction. When a brand is quiet on plumbing, that usually tells you plenty.

So what you are really doing here is buying from someone who is buying from someone who is buying a tub out of China.

That is not where I would put real money.

If it was crazy cheap, fine, maybe we talk. But if this is priced anywhere near a real North American built spa, hard pass.

What price did they quote you on the Stargate?

Did not get into pricing but we are sold on Master twilight. Will follow up when ready to buy. We currently have a tub that is still working but looking forward to the upgrade

When it comes time to buy keep your name out of the databases, hit me up ill get you better pricing through the same sellers.

Brady,

You’re down to two of the top brands.

Jacuzzi and Master are both strong. You’re not going way wrong with either one. Jacuzzi is top tier. Master is still my number one because the boring stuff is better, private ownership, US built, full foam, self supported shell, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and less proprietary content. That stuff matters ten years from now.

Jacuzzi is a good tub, but the Mexico build, tariff hit, corporate marketing machine, and proprietary parts are part of why it costs more. You’re paying a couple grand for things that do not always make the tub better.

My honest take on the IR and nanobubble pitch is this, I would not put real money into either one.

The IR thing is mostly showroom sizzle. Red light can have some use in the right application, but you’re sitting in a hot tub already. You might get a tiny bit more heat effect on one little circle of your back where the light is hitting you, but as a real hydrotherapy feature, no, I don’t buy it. The water and the jetting are doing the therapy. Not a few little lights.

The nanobubble thing is the same deal. The reason you’re not finding hard independent data is because there isn’t much to hang your hat on. It breaks bubbles down smaller, so yes, you get more surface contact area. That part is real. But the marketing jumps from that to “better sanitation” and that is where it gets squishy.

Also, those nanobubbles are not magic ozone bubbles. The spec language says the ozone system works alongside the nanobubble system. That matters. The nanobubbles are basically air. If Jacuzzi had a real oxygen generator or an oxygen tank feeding that system, it would be screamed all over the brochure. They use the word oxygen because there is oxygen in air.

On ozone, I would not lead with the “illegal in Europe” argument unless someone has that in writing. That sounds weak. The stronger point is simple, hot tub ozone systems are tiny add ons. Real ozone sanitation systems cost thousands and have dryers, contact tanks, absorption systems, and off gas destruct units. Hot tubs do not have that. These little spa ozone units can help a bit, but they are not some commercial grade water treatment plant hiding under the skirt.

So when Jacuzzi says 0.5 ppm chlorine, I’m not saying it can’t work under the right conditions. I’m saying I would not pay thousands extra because a marketing department says it will magically cut your chemical life in half. Heavy daily use is still heavy daily use. Bather waste still has to go somewhere. And owner reports are saying they are not getting anywhere near 0.5ppm

Master’s new salt system is the real water care story right now.

I was anti salt for years. Most salt systems are dumb timer chlorine. Higher salt, yo yo chemistry, more corrosion risk. They just make chlorine on a schedule. Use the tub a lot and the sanitizer falls behind. Do not use the tub and the sanitizer climbs.

Master’s new system is different. It is on demand. It tests and doses based on need. It runs about 30 percent lower salt than other systems, and in our beta testing it held below 1 ppm with almost daily use. We only adjusted water chemistry four times in a year, and those were minor pH tweaks.

That is not the same animal as the old salt systems.

And no, you are not going to taste salt. You are not soaking in ocean water. The Master system is around 800 ppm salt. Your tears are around 9,000 ppm. Ocean water is around 35,000 ppm. So the idea that this feels like swimming in the ocean is just wrong. It should not taste salty, and it should not sting your eyes because of salt. Eye sting is usually bad pH, bad alkalinity, or combined sanitizer, not the low salt level itself.

FROG ease is simple. It is a mineral and chlorine dispensing system. It can work fine. But it is still a cartridge feeding sanitizer into the water. Master has a mineral system standard too, and if you want to run even lower chemical load, the best path right now is Master’s on demand salt, or a good enzyme add in, or mineral support. That is where the real low chemical ownership experience is.

On the 2025 Jacuzzi high back at $18,500, yes, I would be cautious.

The cover is one issue. It is custom, it is going to cost more, and long term availability could get annoying if they discontinue that high back design. But the bigger issue is that the high back covers never sealed as cleanly, they are harder to handle, and you are limited on cover lifter options because one side is higher. There is a reason most brands walked away from that design.

Jet wise, this is where Twilight really punches.

The Twilight series has a more expensive therapy jet package. More big high flow jets. A real neck and shoulder seat. Big monster jets for feet and legs. And you can divert serious pump power to them. That is what moves muscle mass. Little spicy jets feel good in a wet test, but long term therapy comes from flow, plumbing, and big expensive jets.

So my read is simple.

If you love the Jacuzzi, buy it and do not lose sleep. It is a good spa. But I would not pay thousands more for IR lights and a nanobubble pitch. I would pay more for better shell, better plumbing, better jetting, better parts access, better insulation, and a water care system that has actually impressed us in real use.

That points me back to Master, especially if daily therapy is the goal.

Keep your name out of dealer CRMs for now. Send me the quotes and exact model numbers, and I’ll route you through the same sellers, push the numbers down, and cover you with HTU Buyer Protection.

What exact Twilight model and Jacuzzi model are you comparing?

That’s very interesting that you are saying customers with Jacuzzi’s True Water system are not actually able to run their systems all the way down at 0.5ppm Chlorine. If they are using the Chlorine canister with the tub, are they needing to manually add more than their dealers are telling them? I wish there was more people out there talking about this.

Are you saying that in your test of Master Spa’s new salt system you held your Chlorine to less than 1ppm?

I’m definitely interested in low chemical ownership no matter which brand I go with. Can a good enzyme add in replace Cl/Br as a sanitizer? Are there any downsides to using enzymes? Are there any downsides to the mineral cartridges? I believe both Jacuzzi and Master Spas recommend running a mineral cartridge. I think the master spa cartridge uses copper and zinc while the Jacuzzi one uses silver. Are there different pros/cons in the two?

One of the reps at the Jacuzzi place told me that salt systems don’t work well with our city water here in Lincoln, NE. Looking at some city water report info from last year, it looks like our total hardness was around 192ppm, alkalinity was 164pp, and Calcium was 53ppm. Would any of that (or anything else) matter for efficacy of running a salt system tub?

One of our biggest issues is that we did wet tests at both places and weren’t super impressed at the Master Spa’s store. They only had one tub filled for testing (Twilight 8.25)—the non lounge version. My wife wants a lounge seat and really liked the lounge seat in the 2025 Jacuzzi 400 series that we wet test. My wife liked the more aggressive form fitting in the Jacuzzi in comparison to the Twilight. We had, oddly, noticeably worse buoyancy issues in our wet test of the Twilight—neither of us could even stay sitting down/back in the therapy seat. Neither of us is pure muscle, but we should have had as much trouble as we did and we didn’t have those issues in the Jacuzzi. We also had noticeably worse chemical smell/feel on our skin after getting out and drying off from the Twilight as well as the water stinging my wife’s eye when she accidentally splashed some. Is it possible that this sales guy just has no clue what he is doing with the chemicals and is way overdosing on the salt and chlorine both for his floor model? He did straight up tell me that he doesn’t really bother with the alkalinity and just makes sure the chlorine is in the “ok” range on the test strip bottle. He even brought over and showed me the bottle. He wasn’t even sure what numbers, off the top of his head, that “ok” range represented (I believe it was 3-5ppm on the bottle). This tub was running the salt system as well. While I am wondering about his Chlorine levels, do the free Chlorine byproducts (Chloramines, Cyanuric Acid, etc) also cause skin/eye irritation and smell as they build up in a hot tub?

Separately, we were pretty annoyed with how the diverter valves divvied up the water in the Twilight (and that they were both on one side of the tub and not supposed to be changed while the pumps were running). Neither of us really felt there was enough water pressure in the hydrotherapy seat with its diverter set to the middle, however, if you turn that valve fully to the hydrotherapy seat, it completely shuts off 3 other seats. That’s fine by itself, but if you also want the second diverter valve set to full power for the foot jets (which are positioned decently to be used by the hyrdrotherapy seat), it totally shuts off all other seats on the other side! So… you were left with a very large and expensive single seater tub! Otherwise, you have to choose to have half power foot jets or no foot jets at all to get good pressure for the two seats across from the hydrotherapy seat. I get that those master blaster foot jets take a ton of water flow, it’s just pretty lame that you can’t have high power there and at the hydrotherapy seat if you have more than just one person in the tub.

The Master Spa guy also pulled the sleezy car salesman routine about the owner telling them to increase the tub prices, but that he could hold the previously quoted price for us if we got back to him by closing the next day… my wife about told him straight up right there that he just lost any chance of a sale at all. Why do these reps still think this is a good tactic to use???

For Master Spa’s, I have been primarily looking at the Twilight 8.2 as I know it is the best bang for your buck, but I’m becoming a little more intrigued by the LSX 800 if it has more molded seats and the wife would be a lot more comfortable in them. My main issue there is that these guys don’t even have a Legend series model on the floor (wet or dry) to sit in (or a wet Twilight 8.2 for that matter). For Jacuzzi, we were mainly checking out a 2025 model they had on the floor discounted (I believe it was a J475 and I think they had ~$18,500 on it). For reference, both of these stores have been in town for quite a while and have respectable ratings on google. The Master Spas store also sells Cal Spas and Nordic Spas and has a 4.7 rating with 59 reviews and the Jacuzzi store has a 4.8 rating with 314 reviews.

Thank you for your time,
Brady

Brady,

On the TruWater numbers, I would not treat this as unique to Jacuzzi.

Everybody has a miracle chemical reduction story.

Jacuzzi has TruWater. Master has EcoPur and now the salt system. Hot Spring has silver cartridges and ozone. Bullfrog has its version. Every showroom has some version of, “You will barely use chemicals.”

And honestly, most of them underquote the real world.

I have heard Master dealers tell customers that just because the EcoPur ion cartridge is standard, they will have to do almost nothing and run almost no chlorine. That is not reality either. So this is not me picking on Jacuzzi. This is the spa industry doing spa industry things.

The real question is not whether TruWater can help. It probably can.

The question is whether it reliably lets a daily use hot tub live at 0.5 ppm chlorine with almost no owner input. That is the part I would be careful with.

Yes, on the Master salt test, we held just under 1 ppm most of the time.

I can put you in touch with Bill, who had that test system on his own tub. He still has it, because he kept it after the salt test. He ran it on the lowest setting and maintained just below 1 ppm the whole time. You can ask him directly what the process was like, how much he had to touch it, and what the water felt like.

That kind of firsthand feedback is more useful than brochure math from any brand.

On low chemical ownership, enzymes are simple and reliable.

We ran showroom tubs for years at around 0.5 ppm using Spa Marvel. Enzyme is one of the best add ins out there, in my opinion. It does not replace chlorine or bromine as the legal sanitizer, but it reduces the organic load, so the sanitizer has less work to do.

That is how you get lower chemical feel without pretending chemistry stopped existing.

Same thing with Aqua Finesse. It is a very good add in mineral and water care system. It is also expensive, around $150 every three months. We ran showroom tubs on that too, right around 0.5 ppm to under 1 ppm. It worked well.

But there is always the other side of this, work level.

On Jacuzzi TruWater, enzyme programs, or Master’s standard mineral setup, you still have to dose chlorine unless you have a system actively making or feeding sanitizer.

If you use the FROG cartridge, the lowest you are realistically going to get is around 1 ppm because that is basically what the dose is. Even Jacuzzi’s own documentation says with the FROG system you are in the 0.5 to 1 ppm range. Without FROG, yes, you can run closer to 0.5 ppm, but now you are manually dosing every two or three days with a teaspoon of granulated chlorine.

That is not hard, but it is more work.

And if you miss it, the tub can go sideways fast.

On minerals, the cartridges you are talking about are ion systems.

Master uses copper and zinc ions. Jacuzzi uses silver. Both are mineral systems. Both can help. I do not see a giant real world difference between the two. They are support systems. They are not magic sanitizer replacement systems. the aqua finese mineral system is a different monster you add it in weekly.

The bigger difference is whether the main sanitizer system is doing the work automatically or whether you are doing it by hand.

As for the Lincoln water comment, saying salt systems do not work there is simply false.

Lincoln water does not prevent a salt system from working. The fill water is high in alkalinity and a bit high in pH, so a salt tub needs proper startup balancing. The alkalinity should be lowered into the manufacturer’s range, pH brought down, and a fill filter or metal protect used.

If that is not done, you can get scale, pH drift, or reduced cell performance.

But that is a water balance issue, not proof salt systems do not work in Lincoln.

Using an X10 or similar pre filter is smart, especially for a salt tub. It can reduce metals, sediment, chlorine, odors, rust, and other junk before it gets into the spa. That makes startup cleaner and can help protect the salt cell.

But it is not the same as softening or reverse osmosis.

It probably will not lower Lincoln’s 164 ppm alkalinity or 192 ppm hardness enough to skip balancing. You still fill, test, lower alkalinity, adjust pH, and then let the system do its job.

On the wet test, I would be careful not to overread that showroom tub.

The water condition in a floor model is random. That Twilight test was not proving what the Master salt system will feel like in your backyard. It was proving that the dealer may not be great at water care.

Eye sting is usually pH, alkalinity, or combined chlorine. Not salt. Not “too much jetting.” Not brand.

If the guy told you he does not really bother with alkalinity and just keeps chlorine somewhere in the “OK” range on a strip bottle, then yes, that explains a lot. That tub could have had high pH, low pH, high combined chlorine, old water, high sanitizer, bad alkalinity, or all of the above.

A wet test tells you seat fit and jet feel.

It does not reliably tell you long term water quality unless the dealer is actually maintaining the water correctly.

On the buoyancy issue in the Twilight, I think that was mostly a function of pump power and diverter position.

The Jacuzzi J475 uses two 3 horsepower pumps and no diverters on that model. In the main seat, you basically have one 4 horsepower pump feeding several seats. So that one seat is probably seeing something like 2 horsepower worth of water flow.

The Master Twilight runs two 6 horsepower pumps with diverters. When you sat in that main captain’s chair, they likely had the diverter stealing all the water and sending it into that one seat.

That means you were getting a 6 horsepower pump dumped into one seat versus the Jacuzzi giving you roughly a third of a smaller pump.

That is why you were getting pushed out.

Leave the diverter in the middle and now you are much closer to what the Jacuzzi was doing, just with more available flow if you decide to use it.

That is not really a negative or a positive by itself. It depends how you use the tub.

If you and your wife are both in the tub, you run the diverters in the middle and share the water. If you are in there alone after a workout and want the big massage, you steal more water and hammer one therapy seat.

Some people love that control.

Some people prefer the simpler, smoother Jacuzzi setup where the water delivery is more fixed and you are not thinking about diverter positions as much.

That is a real preference difference, not a right or wrong answer.

On the diverters, I get the annoyance.

Diverters can feel clunky in a wet test. You are trying to figure out a tub in 20 minutes, the salesperson is hovering, the valves are not where you expect them, and suddenly half the tub shuts off. That feels stupid.

But in ownership, you usually learn the two or three positions you actually use and stop thinking about it.

The reason Twilight has that much control is because it is moving a lot of water through large therapy jets.

Big jets need water.

The Master Blaster foot jets take a lot of flow. The big therapy seat takes a lot of flow. That is why the system can feel like a single monster therapy station when everything is diverted hard.

That is not how you run it socially. That is how you run it when you want serious therapy.

Jacuzzi takes the other approach. Less diverter management, more even delivery, less chance of accidentally robbing one side of the tub. That can feel better in a wet test and may be better for people who do not want to fiddle with valves.

So again, not wrong either way.

On seating, I would also be careful with the “Jacuzzi felt more molded” take.

The J475 and Twilight are actually pretty similar from a shell molding standpoint. Neither is a deep bucket, locked in, heavily sculpted seat design. They are both open style premium tubs.

If we were comparing Twilight to something like an Instinct Spa, then yes, Instinct has more heavily molded bucket seating and that becomes a real seat fit conversation.

But between the Twilight and the J475, the big difference you felt was probably more water flow and diverter position than shell design.

That said, your wife liking the Jacuzzi lounge matters.

A wet test is not meaningless. If she fit the Jacuzzi lounge better, stayed planted better, and liked the feel better, that counts. Comfort is not a brochure spec. You either fit the seat or you do not.

The LSX 800 may be worth looking at because it is a more premium tub and may feel different from the Twilight, it is more contoured and you definitely stick in the seat harder.

On the old J475 versus the new 2026 J400, there is one detail worth correcting.

I assumed you were testing the newer J400. The new one does not have the same diffuser setup. The older J475 does have diffusers. So that is a fair point in favor of the older floor model feel.

But again, the pump package is still smaller than the Twilight setup. The Jacuzzi is using a smoother, less adjustable delivery. The Master is giving you more top end flow and more control.

Different feel.

Not automatically better or worse.

On the high back 2025 J475 at $18,500, that is high for a running floor model, i would suspect through the buyers service we can get that number down, also when it was put into the floor matters is this a 16 month old tub? or a 6 month old tub? ask for the date of manufacture

I can also take a run at the price of the new Jacuzzi for you

The cover is still a concern. That high back cover is custom, heavier, more expensive, and long term replacement could be more annoying now that the high back design is being phased out.

Not a deal killer.

Just a real ownership note.

On the Master dealer’s pressure tactic, yeah, that is garbage.

The “owner told us prices are going up tomorrow” routine is old car lot nonsense. It does not mean the tub is bad. It means the salesperson needs better training.

I hate that tactic because it makes a strong product look shady.

Do not reward pressure.

Get the written quote, exact model, delivery, cover, steps, lifter, electrical, salt system, taxes, everything. Then we work from paper.

Big picture, Brady, you are already in the solid zone.

A Jacuzzi J475 and a Master Twilight or LSX are both serious tubs. You are not comparing a good tub to junk. You are probably looking at two of the top tubs I would even have on the list for a therapy buyer.

If you buy the Jacuzzi because your wife loves the lounge, the dealer is stronger, and the simpler water flow feels better to you, I am not going to tell you that you made a bad move.

It is a good spa.

If you buy the Master because you want more adjustable therapy, strong build fundamentals, common parts, and the on demand salt option, that is also a good move.

The real mistake would be paying too much for either one, or letting a salesperson turn a close decision into a panic buy.

So my read is balanced.

Jacuzzi is the easier showroom sell. Good comfort, good brand, good jet feel, less diverter fiddling, strong dealer presence, and that floor model may be a legit buy if the number is right.

Master is the stronger value and therapy machine on paper, with more pump control, strong build fundamentals, and a water care system I have more firsthand confidence in.

Neither one is junk.

Neither one is a runaway.

At this point I would make the decision on three things, your wife’s actual seat fit, the final written price, and which dealer you trust more after the sales nonsense is stripped away.

A crushed stone base is solid as long as you excavate the are well and get rid of the fluffy top soil, then 4-6" of well tamped crusher and then drop patio stones on it. it sill last forever.

what tub do you have or are you thinking of buying?

Thanks for your reply! From reading the information you provide, likely a Master tub, but I will be in touch for support. I was concerned whether crushed stone would invalidate a warranty.

No as long as its properly laid and has patio stones on top.

We can get you better pricing on any tub, we don't sell anything we are a collective of hot tub buyers and that volume gives us two things... better pricing and guaranteed service levels because no one wants to be on the bad side of the high traffiv of buyers coming here every year :-)

Our $99 private buyers service and included buyers protection service are legend level, we guarantee to save you more than the cost of the service or refund it and the reality is our average savings is around $500 but the real kicker is the Buyer protection. If you have an issue and the seller isn't being responsive instead of going one on one you simple hit me up, I talk to them and things will resolve fast.

Rick,

That J 485 is a great tub from a great brand.

Jacuzzi is absolutely one of the better names in the industry. You had one, you liked it, and that matters. You are not looking at junk.

The issue right now is price.

Jacuzzi pricing is a little out of whack. You have the Mexico build getting hit with tariffs, you have the corporate ownership layer, and you have a big marketing machine baked into the price. That can easily add a couple grand without giving you a better massage or a better shell.

So yes, I like Jacuzzi.

I just do not love what people are paying for them right now.

For something comparable, I would be looking hard at Master Spas first. Build quality wise, they are one of the strongest plays right now, US built, privately held, self supported shell, full foam insulation, clamped plumbing, compression fittings, and good common components. That is the boring stuff that matters ten years later.

Artesian would also be in the conversation, especially the Elite series. They do not clamp the plumbing anymore, so I do not have them quite where I used to, but they are still a good spa when the price is right.

If you want a step up in jet performance from the J 485, look at the Master Twilight series or the Artesian Elite series.

The Twilight in particular is a beast for real therapy. It carries more of the large high flow therapy jets, not just a bunch of little spicy jets that feel impressive for ten minutes in a wet test. Big jets move muscle mass. That is what matters for deep tissue.

Twilight also has a better neck and shoulder system, and a much stronger leg and foot setup. You can divert serious pump power to those big jets, and that is where you get the heavy massage you are talking about.

The two speed jet thing is not really the main issue. What you want is control, diverters, big plumbing, proper pump power, and large high flow therapy jets. That is what gives you relaxation when you want it and real pressure when you need it.

My recommendation is simple.

Spend the $99 on my private buyer service. It will be the best $99 you spend in this process.

I will tell you what tub I would actually buy, route you to the right seller, negotiate better pricing, and guarantee I save you more than the $99 or I refund it.

The bigger thing is Buyer Protection.

If you ever have a problem with the seller, they know damn well you are going to call me, and then I am going to call them. Instead of you fighting one on one, I am fighting with thousands of buyers behind me. Nobody in this industry wants that battle, especially with the traffic Hot Tub University gets.

People are extremely careful to take care of customers when they know the buyer came through my private buyer service.

What price did you get in writing on the J 485?

Andrew,

That is exactly what my private buyer service is built for.

You do not need a Master dealer sitting five minutes from your house to buy an LSX 700 properly. Master has national delivery, installation, and service support. Dealer proximity is not the big safety net people think it is. The real safety net is who is backing you when something needs attention.

That is where I come in.

I can process you through the factory direct side, get the pricing down to about as low as it ever gets, and make sure you are not floating around on your own after the sale.

If you ever have a service issue that is not being handled properly, you do not have to fight with a dealer, call center, or service department by yourself. You hit me up. I make the call. I put the weight of thousands of hot tub buyers behind it, and people pay attention.

That is the whole point of Hot Tub University Buyer Protection.

We do not sell tubs. We introduce you to the same local support or factory direct path, get you better pricing, and back you up after the purchase. If anyone drags their feet, you text me on my private mobile and I sort it.

There is no better protection in this industry right now than having that kind of buyer volume behind you. Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of that. Everyone is a lot more careful when they know the customer came through HTU.

Jump on the private buyer service. It is $99. I will save you way more than $99 on the purchase, or I will refund it, and I will throw in Buyer Protection for free. BTW that applies to any tub of any brand you want to purchase...

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thank you for the reply! What do you think a realistic price is with the salt water system?

close to the $18k range.

Did you check out the twiligh 7.2? in my opinion its a m=better massage jet system and same build. closer to $15k

Yes I have. I actually am wanting that one after reading all of your posts. I thought I saw somewhere that you said 12,500 was a realistic number for one. Maybe that was without the salt water system.

$12500 was for a demo or blem in the 7.2 without salt and even that was a one off crazy price, and older, everything is up in price in the last 18 months

Hi Krista,

I do not have a published decibel rating for the Master Spas Clarity Balance 7 specifically. In real world use though, a properly installed hot tub with the cover closed is extremely quiet. At about five feet away, you typically only hear a very low background hum from the circulation pump, and in many backyard settings it blends into normal ambient outdoor noise.

The situations where noise complaints can happen are usually not from airborne sound, but from vibration transfer. For example:

If the spa is placed on a deck attached to the home, vibration can travel through the framing and create a low harmonic hum indoors.

If the concrete pad is mechanically connected to a shared wall, fence structure, or neighboring foundation, low frequency vibration can transfer surprisingly efficiently.

The best practice is to install the spa on an isolated concrete pad or patio stone base directly on grade, separated from surrounding structures. That setup eliminates nearly all meaningful vibration transfer and keeps operation very quiet for both the homeowner and adjacent neighbors.

With the cover off during use, the majority of the sound people notice is typically from normal conversation, water movement, and splashing, not from the spa equipment itself.

With the insulated cover on, the spa should not create disruptive noise for neighboring properties under normal operation.

do you have pricing yet?

if so what number are you getting?

Thank you for your reply - the knowledge and experience you have are so helpful.

Im not gonna lie that's a solid price on the clarity we can process it for you through the same seller and ill throw in the buyers protection service so if you ever had conflict with the dealer instead of a one on one battle you hit me up and ill move the weight of thousands of buyers behind it. That never fails to get resolution fast!

Also check out the Instinct spa line... same build and better pricing...

David,

No, the Hot Spring is not worth the extra 4k. Not even close.

Let’s break it down.

Master Spas is the largest manufacturer in the U.S., top three globally, and one of the last big players that’s still family owned.

No tariff hit, no bloated corporate overhead, just a company that’s been building spas for over 25 years and putting the money into the product.

Hot Spring is the opposite.

Corporate owned, built in Mexico, and loaded with tariffs, shipping costs, and heavy marketing baked into the price.

That’s the only reason these two tubs aren’t closer in cost.

Now look at the salt systems.

Hot Spring’s system is older tech.

Higher salt, and it’s basically a dumb timer. It just produces chlorine on a schedule, whether you need it or not. So levels swing up and down depending on usage.

Master’s system is the new standard.

On demand, auto testing and dosing. It only generates chlorine when needed, holds around 1 ppm steady, and runs about half the chemical load.

That’s why it works.

Now jets.

Small jets are cheap, 20 to 30 bucks.

Mid size jets maybe 35 to 50.

Large high flow therapy jets, 80 to 100 each.

That adds up fast.

The Twilight jet package is easily 2,500 more in real value than what’s in the Pulse.

More large high flow jets, more real therapy, less filler.

These two tubs are not in the same league from a performance standpoint.

Hot Spring isn’t a bad tub.

But it’s loaded with proprietary parts.

That means you’re locked into their ecosystem for service. Only authorized dealers, higher part costs, more expensive repairs, more hassle long term.

Master uses standard, off the shelf components.

Balboa systems, common parts, plug and play, easy to service anywhere.

That matters over the life of the tub.

So no, the extra 4k isn’t buying you better performance or better build. It’s paying for brand, tariffs, and a closed system.

On the salt package, yes, I’d push for it in the deal.

If they won’t include it, it’s still worth it on the Master side. On the Hot Spring side, I wouldn’t bother.

Keep your name out of dealer systems for now. If you send me the written quotes, I’ll route you through the same sellers, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

Your price on the Twilight is super good, should be $14k at least plus the salt the hot springs we see from $12k sometimes we can renegotiate the price on it for y=sure and save you money

im gonna kick you over to my buyers team they can process these tubs through the same local dealers and caver you with our buyer protraction service, if a dealer stalls on service don't fight with them hit me up ill fight with them for you lol

Thanks for the info and confirmation on the one we are leaning toward. Besides being cheaper, the Master Spa Twilight 8.25 has the larger jets that will help with my wife’s arthritis issues. The dealer is about an hour a way from us but has “assured us that they can and do take care of the entire state of WI with service and warranty work”. Hopefully they follow through on that, I know I have seen concerns on your site as well as others that sometimes service is spotty if a dealer is not close by.

Thanks again, appreciate your input and help.

If you want I can process the order through master spas factory, they will give it to the local dealer who will make the profit and do the install service but it will give you my private buyers protection, if that dealer does not perform or you have issues hit me up and ill deal with them for you. best guarantee of solid service.

Al, this is exactly the range where Instinct makes the most sense.

Under 9k, nothing in retail stores is going to touch it, and that’s not marketing talk, that’s just how the pricing works.

When you buy through a showroom, roughly 30 percent of the price is marketing, sales staff, floor space, and all the stuff needed to get you in front of the tub.

We stripped all of that out.

So this was an 11k to 12k tub in stores, brought down to about 8.5k factory direct.

Same level of build, no fluff baked into the price.

Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam insulation, Balboa equipment. Built the right way.

No options either, which is a good thing.

One setup, one color, cover included, delivered and installed. You don’t have to guess or worry about building it wrong.

For what you’re describing, relaxing, light massage, lounger, this fits well.

It’s not a heavy therapy tub like Twilight, but it’s comfortable, well laid out, and hits that “soak and relax” use case properly.

On size, you’re both on the shorter side, so you don’t need to go big.

There is a larger version if you want more room to stretch out, but most couples your size are perfectly happy in the standard layout, especially with the lounger.

Now on chemicals.

There’s no such thing as zero chemical, anyone telling you that is selling something.

But this is where it gets better.

Instinct is salt ready.

When the salt system is back in stock, it’s a plug and play module you drop in.

And this isn’t the typical salt system.

Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo-yo chemistry.

This one is on demand, auto testing and dosing, and runs about 30 percent lower salt while holding around 1 ppm steady.

That’s the gold standard right now.

You’ll still check pH periodically, maybe once a week, but in beta testing we were only adjusting water three, maybe four times in a full year, and those were minor pH tweaks.

So very low maintenance compared to anything else out there.

Only real downside is timing.

Typically 4 to 6 weeks for delivery, maybe 8 if you’re in a remote spot or just miss a shipment.

That’s it.

At your budget, for a lounger, easy maintenance, and solid build, this is the cleanest option on the market right now.

We can line it up so you don’t get pulled into dealer systems, get the right pricing, and you’re covered if anything comes up.

Awesome, really appreciate the info Chris.

Brian,

Those are both decent, fair retail numbers for fully loaded, delivered, installed, with the cover and accessories.

But we can do better through Buyer’s Service.

Not massively better, but enough to save you more than the $99 cost, and you get Buyer Protection on top. If anything goes sideways and the dealer drags their feet, you call me, I deal with them. That’s why things get resolved fast.

Now, on the tubs.

Both are well built.

Good shells, wood frames, full foam insulation. No major red flags on either from a core construction standpoint.

But there are some big differences.

Master is privately held, built in the U.S.

So you’re avoiding tariffs, heavy shipping costs, and corporate overhead.

Jacuzzi is corporate owned, part of a European group, built in Mexico.

So you’ve got tariffs, shipping, and a big marketing machine baked into that price.

That’s why it trends more expensive for what you get.

Although the core components are very similar between the two, Jacuzzi modifies connection points and fittings so you can’t just use standard off the shelf parts. There’s no real quality gain, it just forces you into proprietary replacements, which are always more expensive and a pain long term.

Now the real separation is the jet package.

These two aren’t actually comparable from a performance standpoint.

The J-345 lines up closer to something like a Master Clarity or even the Instinct line.

It’s mostly small, low flow jets, with only a couple of larger therapy jets mixed in.

It’ll feel good in a quick test, but it’s not moving serious muscle long term.

Twilight is a different animal.

The jet package alone is easily $2,500 more expensive in real terms.

It’s loaded with large, high flow therapy jets, a legit neck and shoulder seat, and the twin monster jets on the footwell for legs and feet.

That’s real therapy.

So yeah, both are good builds.

But from a performance and therapy standpoint, they’re not even close.

If therapy matters, Twilight is the clear winner.

We Can process those deals through the same sellers for you and throw in the buyers protection free.

Ill send you through to Bill he heads up the buyers service he can finalise which ever deal you decide on and make sure your taken care of down the road.

What's the price target?

10k range

Marjorie,

At that 10k range, strong jets and simple, there’s one clear direction.

Instinct.

That’s the cleanest value in the market right now, and it fits exactly what you’re asking for.

Here’s why.

Most tubs sold through retail have a big chunk of cost tied up in marketing, branding, and showroom overhead.

We don’t have that problem.

We already see the majority of buyers before they ever step into a store, so we didn’t need to spend on advertising or floor space to get this in front of you.

That savings gets passed straight through.

So what used to be an 11k to 12k tub in stores lands in the mid to high 8s factory direct.

Same build, no fluff cost.

And it’s built properly.

Self supported shell.

Glued and clamped plumbing.

Compression fittings.

Full foam insulation.

Balboa equipment.

That’s the stuff that actually matters long term.

Jet wise, it’s a strong, comfortable massage. Way better than most of the low end retail tubs that load up on tiny jets.

Layout wise, you can get a 5 seater, with or withput a lounger delivered and installed with service backed by my buyers protection.simple, easy to use, no overcomplication.

No options either.

One setup, one color, cover included, delivered and installed.

No guesswork, no upsells.

On maintenance, it’s salt ready.

When the module is available, it drops right in.

Most salt systems are dumb timers, higher salt, yo-yo chemistry.

This one is on demand, lower salt, holds around 1 ppm steady.

You’ll still check pH once in a while, but it’s about as low maintenance as it gets.

Only tradeoff is delivery timing.

Usually 4 to 6 weeks, maybe a bit longer if you’re in a tougher service area.

That’s it.

At your budget, for a simple 5 seater with solid jets and no nonsense, this is the best value out there right now.

https://instinctspas.com/

David,

For swim spas, especially in that 8x12 range, build quality matters even more than hot tubs. These things run harder, more flow, more stress on the system.

Master Spas is the benchmark.

They’re the largest and oldest manufacturer in the space. They didn’t just jump in, they’ve been building these longer than anyone. The units are built like tanks, full foam insulation, solid shells, clamped plumbing, and they’re highly serviceable.

Best overall build, best insulation, best long term ownership.

That’s where I’d start.

Close second is Jacuzzi.

Build quality is solid, on par in a lot of ways, but they’re corporate owned, built in Mexico, and you’re paying for tariffs, shipping, and a heavy marketing layer.

So you end up spending more money for a similar level of build.

Third would be something like TidalFit.

US made, so you avoid the tariff hit, which helps on price.

But they’re corporate owned, so there’s still marketing baked in, and they don’t clamp plumbing lines, which is a step back on long term reliability.

Still a decent option, just not at the same level as Master.

Big picture, all three can work.

The real question is budget, because that’s what’s going to narrow this down fast.

What range are you trying to stay in?

Any features you love or hate?

I would like to stay under 20k. Can I get a Master Spa in that range?

David,

Short answer, no.

Even through my Buyer’s Service, you’re not getting into a well built swim spa under 20k.

Real number is about 23.5k and up for something done right, no matter which good brand we line up.

Anything under that, you’re cutting corners somewhere, usually shell, insulation, or plumbing, and that’s the stuff that bites you later.

What we can do is make sure when you spend it, you’re getting full value.

We’ll run it through the same sellers you’d hit on your own, same local delivery and service, just with better pricing and no games.

And it’s covered.

If anyone drops the ball, delays, service issues, whatever, you don’t chase them.

You come to me, I handle it.

That’s Buyer Protection.

Buyer’s Service is $99.

If I can’t save you more than that, I refund it. That’s never happened.

And I’ll include the Buyer Protection with it.

So you’re covered on both ends, price and service.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Give me a rough price range you are comfortable with and I will narrow this down fast.

I would not want to spend more than 9,000

Under 11k, nothing touches Instinct right now. Period.

And this isn’t sales fluff, there’s a real reason for it.

When you buy a hot tub through a retail store, about 30 percent of that price is not the tub. It’s marketing, advertising, branding, brochures, commissions, and showroom floor space so you can see it.

That’s the game. If they can’t get you in front of a tub, they can’t sell it.

We’re the only player in the space with enough organic traffic to strip all of that out.

So what we did was simple.

Take a tub that was 11k to 12k in retail stores, remove the marketing and dealer layers, and offer it factory direct at about 8.5k.

Same level of build. No fluff cost.

Why can we do that?

Because we already see about 80 percent of buyers before they ever walk into a showroom. We don’t need to pay that extra 30 percent to go find them again.

No brochures. No sales floor overhead. No commission games.

Just the tub.

And it’s built right.

Self supported shell.

Glued and clamped plumbing.

Compression fittings.

Full foam insulation.

Balboa equipment.

No gimmicks.

No options either. That’s another place the industry plays games.

This is one configuration. One color. Cover included. Delivered and installed. Done.

You literally can’t mess up the order.

On service, same story.

It’s backed, and if anything ever goes sideways, you don’t get stuck chasing a dealer or calling a random service line.

You text me. I deal with it.

And that matters, because service is where most people get burned.

Reality is, we’ve moved hundreds of these since launch.

The factory has moved hundreds.

We have not had a single case where we’ve had to step in and fix a problem on an Instinct. Not one.

That’s since January.

Only downside, delivery timing.

Typically 4 to 6 weeks.

Worst case maybe 8 if you’re in a remote area or just miss a production batch.

That’s it.

Under 11k, there isn’t a retail tub that competes with this on build, delivery, and support. Not even close.

So lead me to where to but this hot tub

Sorry! lol you buy it right off the manufacturers website, https://instinctspas.com/

There is no sales support but excellent service support so if you have questions just hit me up here

Hi Courtnee,

Good start. Height and back issues matter a lot here.

For your husband at 6’4”, depth is key. He is going to want a deeper seat and strong therapy jets that actually move muscle, not just small ones that feel sharp for a minute. The “weightless” feel usually comes from deeper tubs with good buoyancy and leg support.

On salt, quick reality. Most salt systems are dumb timers, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. The Gold standard is the newer on demand systems, about 30 percent lower salt, holds around 1 ppm steady. That is why it works.

Now location matters more than people think, not for buying, but for service and support.

Can you tell me where in New Hampshire you are, or even a nearby town or where you typically shop? I want to make sure whatever I point you to has real service backing in your area.

On budget, salt capable tubs run anywhere from about $10,000 up to $20,000 depending on size and how much therapy you want. Big difference between a basic soaker and a true therapy machine.

Give me a rough price range you are comfortable with and I will narrow this down fast.

What town are you closest to and where do you want to land on budget?

You have several very good brands here. All of these are top 10.

Here are the differences.

Master is made in the USA, privately held, and checks all the big build boxes. Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fit jets, full foam insulation, solid wood frame.

Sundance is investor owned. That adds about $1,500 to $2,000 in cost. It is also made in Mexico, so tariffs and shipping push pricing higher. Build is similar to Master, but double check the current models. We are seeing some creep, steel frames showing up, and more perimeter style insulation being pushed as upgrades. Those are cost cuts, not upgrades.

Bullfrog is also made in the USA, so no tariffs, but it is equity owned, so again you get that extra cost layer. The downside is the shell. It is a cradle supported ABS system, which is a step down. I am also not a fan of the JetPaks. They are inefficient, have had ongoing issues, and required workarounds like redirecting water flow to deal with bacteria behind the packs.

On the Michael Phelps Legend, you are at the higher end of the Master line. It is priced against premium tubs like Jacuzzi 400 series and Artesian Elite. You are paying for a much heavier therapy system, more large high flow jets, and a bigger overall package.

So the real question is not brand, it is priority.

What is your budget?

And what matters more, chill and relaxation, or true massage therapy?

If it is therapy, what parts of your body are you trying to target?

I would say that my priority would be massage therapy for shoulder that has not been the same since surgery, lower back/sciatica, and calves.

For what you’re describing, shoulder rehab, lower back, sciatica, calves, therapy is the priority.

Of the brands you’re likely looking at, none of them do a good neck and shoulder massage. The only one that really does is the LSX.

But I don’t actually recommend the LSX.

I recommend you drop into the Twilight series.

In my opinion, it’s the best therapy massage spa on the market.

The key is how the flow is managed.

You’ve got a vertical neck and shoulder jet that can concentrate an entire 6 horsepower pump into the main captain’s seat. That means real pressure, not just surface level spray.

Same idea with the monster jets.

These are excellent for calves and feet, especially on the non lounger version.

The way they’re positioned, you can sit in front of them or behind them. You can aim your legs right over the jets and push a full 6 horsepower pump through just those jets.

That’s deep tissue. That’s what actually helps with recovery.

For therapy, nothing really touches this setup in a well built tub.

It also has more high flow therapy jets than anything else out there.

And that matters, because high flow jets are the expensive ones. That’s where the real performance is.

Master spent the money on the jetting here.

Twilight is untouchable in that category.

Now, lounger vs non lounger.

If you go lounger, you lose some of that calf performance.

You still get leg jets and you still get monster jets, but it’s harder to position your calves directly over them and get that same focused pressure.

Non lounger is better for calves. No question.

And one thing to keep in mind.

First time buyers almost always want a lounger. That’s just how we think on land. You lay down, it supports your weight, feels comfortable.

But in water, you’re floating. You don’t need that support.

Second time buyers almost never go back to loungers.

what price are you trying to stay at and lounger or no lounger?

I live in Salt Lake City Valley in Utah. I’ve heard several negative comments on Master Spas service repair calls because they are a national company and do not have service centers in a lot of areas. What do you know on this topic?

Tyson,

We process thousands of hot tub purchases through dealers across a bunch of brands.

Master is one of the bigger ones we work with, and we’ve worked with them for years.

Have we seen service issues? Sure. Every brand has them.

But overall, fewer than most.

A lot of it comes down to location.

In your case, you’ve got a dealer about four miles away, so realistically, service should not be an issue.

Big picture, service can be sketchy sometimes no matter what brand you buy. It can also be excellent. It really depends on the local setup and the situation.

The best way to make sure you get good service, regardless of brand, is having us in your corner.

Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of the kind of traffic we see through this site, so when we step in, things get handled quickly.

Do you want me to check who’s actually servicing your exact area and how they’re performing right now?

Yes, if you could check who is servicing my area, that would be helpful.

Spoke to Tim Oliphant He runs the store there it just opened but its part of a big group and they have loads of other locations so it's going to be stable and reliable. We can process the order through them for you we will get slightly better pricing and you will get my private buyers protection service so if service did stall instead of fighting with the seller you hit me up ill deal with them, same with any of the other brands your looking at.

are you leaning one way or the other?

Trent and Jeni,

You picked right. Twilight 7.2 hits your use case dead on, neck and legs, real therapy, lounger, proper build.

1. Buying with no local dealer: No issue. Master runs national delivery and service. They’ve been dropping tubs into your area for years, those expo crews you saw are the same pipeline. We’ll route it factory direct, they assign a local delivery and install team, same guys that handle warranty. You’re not stranded.
2. PBS and getting it there, set up: Yes. That’s the whole point. We don’t sell tubs, we route you to the same sellers or factory direct, get you better numbers, and put our Buyer Protection on it. When your order is tagged through us, everyone in that chain knows it. Stuff gets handled fast because if it doesn’t, I get involved and it gets fixed. Delivery, placement, startup, all covered.
3. Quietflow Water Care: Skip it. It’s a small circ pump running 24/7. Sounds nice on paper, doesn’t change water quality. Your main pumps already turn the water over in a few hours. Same filtration, less runtime. The little pump is just another part to fail and replace. With salt, it’s even less relevant. Save the money.
4. Price for TS 7.2 with salt: Ballpark, you should be around low to mid 13s into mid 15s delivered and installed depending on timing and promos. If you’re higher than that, we can tighten it up. The salt system is worth it. Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. Master’s is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds about 1 ppm steady. That’s why it works. Ill have my PBS team reach out with firm pricing on email
5. Local dealer vs Jacuzzi, Sundance: You don’t need a local dealer with Master. That’s a sales myth. Master uses standard parts, Balboa controls, Waterway jets, modular swaps, any tech can work on it and they have a service network anyway.

Jacuzzi and Sundance are fine tubs, but Mexico build, tariffs, heavy marketing, and more proprietary edges. You’ll pay 2k to 3k more for less therapy. Sundance also runs older jet bodies. If you forced me into a comp, you’re looking at J-400 or 880 series with a lounger, but you’ll spend more and still won’t match the Twilight jet package. Big high flow jets cost money, Twilight has more of them, that’s why it outperforms.

Net, you already landed on the best fit. Don’t overthink it.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. Send me whatever quote you get and I’ll route you through the same channel, tighten the price, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

Just a quick follow-up.

I don’t have any quotes and I’m not sure how to get a quote without my name getting in a dealer database.

I did use the Master Spas online tool to locate a dealer - it made me leave a phone number but I said I preferred no phone calls. Then I got a call later from someone on the other side of the state. He was pushy and I’m not even sure if he was from an authorized Master Spas dealer.

So, if I use the PBS, do I still need to get a quote from somewhere? And, if I do, where can I get a quote?

Here’s the cleaned version in your voice, tight and direct:

---

You’re running into exactly why we built Private Buyer Services.

If you try to do this yourself, yeah, you can call dealers and ask for a quote. Just keep it simple:

“I want the base model, no options, delivered and installed, with a cover.”

That’s it.

They’ll tell you it’s complicated. It’s not. They’re trying to get you in the store so they can control the conversation and apply pressure.

If they won’t give you a straight number, they’re playing games. Move on.

What you experienced with that call is also common. Lead forms get passed around, sometimes not even to the right dealer, and now you’re dealing with someone pushy who may or may not be legit.

That’s the mess.

With PBS, you don’t do any of that.

We get the quotes for you.

They don’t get your name, your number, nothing.

We line up real pricing, same sellers, no games.

When you’re ready, we make a clean introduction with the price already set.

Then Buyer Protection kicks in. If anything goes sideways, delays, service, nonsense, you text me and I step in. Dealers move real fast when we get involved.

So no, you don’t need to go chase quotes if you use us. That’s the whole point.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now.

Do you want me to pull pricing on the short list of brands and models you’re considering and line it up clean?

if so jump on the private buyers service, its $99 :-) we can jump on a call, email text whatever and we will 100% guaranteed save you more than $99 or ill refund it.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

The getaway Bar Harbour le are well built, efficient and reliable but what's the price?

Yeah, that’s a tough spot, but also pretty common with those older stainless builds.

Fourteen years in with ongoing leaks and no real service network is the key issue. The tub itself looks great, but the ownership reality is rough. You’re relying on random service techs to chase leaks in a non standard build, and that usually turns into a time and money drain with no clean resolution. At some point you stop fixing and start replacing.

On whether to keep repairing, it comes down to this. If leaks are persistent and hard to isolate, you’re likely into diminishing returns. You fix one spot, another shows up. That’s typical on aging systems, especially something niche without standardized parts and layout. I wouldn’t keep pouring money into that cycle.

On resale, there isn’t much of a real aftermarket for stainless spas. It’s a niche product, and most buyers don’t want the risk, especially with a known leak history. Best bet is Facebook Marketplace or similar, but you have to price it to move.

Simple rule, take what you paid, drop about 30 percent in year one, then roughly 10 percent per year after that. At 14 years, the number is whatever someone is willing to haul away and tinker with. Realistically you’re looking for a DIY buyer, and they’re going to want it cheap.

If you replace it, this is where sticking to a major brand with standard parts and a real service network changes the whole ownership experience. Easier repairs, faster parts, less guesswork.

Do you want to try one more repair round, or are you ready to look at replacements and reset this properly?

David,

Northern New Hampshire, cold winters, so full foam and a self supported shell matter. That’s where your old Hot Spring bit you, Mexico build, more proprietary parts, and they’ve had their share of leak headaches.

At 6’5”, you’ll like deeper, more contoured seats. The heavily molded bucket seats fold you up a bit, keep your shoulders under, and feel deeper without needing a giant tub. Instinct is a good example of that.

Instinct Spas are built by the largest US manufacturer to our spec. Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam, Balboa gear. No fluff. They used to sit on dealer floors around eleven grand. We stripped the dealer margin and marketing layer, now they run about 8.3k direct, delivered, installed, cover included, national service. Same core build, just no showroom tax.

For your use, mostly soaking, not chasing big therapy, look at:

* Instinct Pure or Vital, deep seats, smaller footprint, easy to live with

* No need to pay up for heavy jet packs like Twilight if you’re not using them

If you want salt, quick truth. Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. Master’s is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds about 1 ppm steady. That’s why it works. Instinct is salt ready, module drops in.

Skip the usual suspects you’re probably seeing. Bullfrog is a cradle supported ABS shell with a gimmick jet system. Hot Spring and Caldera are heavy marketing and proprietary parts. Jacuzzi and Sundance are solid but you’re paying a tariff and brand tax for no real gain in your use case.

Service wise, Instinct and Master run national delivery and service, parts are common, fixes are fast. You don’t need to chase a local dealer.

Do you want the best value around that 8 to 9k range, or are you open to stepping up a bit for anything specific like a lounger or salt?

thank you for your comments and suggestions. I notice that the Instinct, Pure and Vital have a height/depth of 36 inches. Given my height, I was was thinking that a hot tub with at least a 38’’ depth would be preferable. Please share your thoughts. thanks.

Depth gets misunderstood a lot.

If you look at true internal water depth, most tubs are very close. Brands bump the exterior number by putting the shell on a taller base, so it reads 38 or 39 on paper without giving you meaningfully more water over your shoulders.

For taller people, the real factor is seat design, not the listed height.

With molded seating, your hips sit lower because the seat drops down and then supports you up through the thighs. That does two things. One, it puts more of your body deeper in the water. Two, it supports your upper legs, so only your calves and feet extend into the footwell.

Compare that to a flat bench. You’re perched higher, your legs stick straight out, and you don’t get nearly the same immersion even if the tub is “deeper” on paper.

So it’s usually less about chasing 38 inches and more about how the seats are shaped.

Best move is to sit in both styles, a deep molded seat and a flat bench, and you’ll feel the difference right away. Tall buyers almost always prefer the molded layout once they try it.

Both can be decent builds, but here’s the part you need to watch.

Do not buy into the hybrid setup. It’s old tech dressed up as a feature. It was originally done to make service easy, all the components packed into one area. That part is true, it’s easier to access. But there are real tradeoffs.

The big reason they moved the equipment inside the tub was to capture waste heat from the pump motors. That actually works. If you shut the heater off in a tub with internal pumps, it can hold temp above 80 just from motor heat. That’s a real advantage.

But when you move that equipment out into a step or separate compartment that’s not properly insulated, you lose heat. You’re pumping hot water outside the main insulation envelope. That’s just bad thermodynamics, more heat loss, higher run cost.

It also matters in a power outage. If your equipment is under the tub, you’ve got a big hot water mass sitting above it, it takes a long time to freeze. If it’s out in a lightly insulated step, it freezes faster. That kind of damage usually isn’t covered, so it’s a real risk.

Second thing, be careful on the lower end Beachcomber builds. One of the corners they cut is a non removable skirt. Saves them about $500. Costs you a nightmare later. If you ever get a leak, access becomes a mess. I would never buy a tub with a non removable skirt, full stop.

LEEP is fine for the price, but don’t assume it’s built the same as a 740 or 750. The Costco line is built to hit a number, not to match the higher spec models.

You’re in Edmonton, cold climate, so insulation and equipment placement matter more, not less.

Do you want me to map a Master model against the 740 so you can see a clean apples to apples?

Thanks for your detailed reply, Chris. I would love your input on a Master model vs. the 740 beachcomber.

Beachcomber 740 vs Master Spas Twilight, Real Build Breakdown

Shell

Both are solid here.

A+ on both.

No real separation.

Sanitiser system Support

Beachcomber doesnt have an effective water sanitiser system opting instea dfor old school simple ozone and higher chlorine levels.

Master’s standard system is ozone plus Ion with options for AOP or even better the new on demand, automatic dosing salt system about 30 percent lower salt, holds around 1 ppm steady. That’s the only one that actually works long term.

Equipment and Controls

Beachcomber runs Balboa.

Master runs Gecko.

Both are good Master moved to the new nest style controller.

Touchscreens sound nice, they fail more, especially in hot tub environments. Moisture, heat, cold swings.

Simple topside controls last longer and are easier to service. Master dumped this exact system last year due to high topside failure rates

If you’re looking at tablet style control, skip it.

Plumbing and Jets

Master uses compression fittings at the shell and clamped plumbing.

That’s the modern, reliable system.

Beachcomber is still using an older two part jet body with silicone.

It works, but it’s cheaper and more failure prone over time.

This is a clear edge to Master.

Insulation

Both are full foam, open cell.

A+ on both.

This matters in cold climates. No gimmicks here.

Frame

Both use wood frames.

Master reinforces corners with gussets.

Small edge to Master, but both are acceptable.

Jet Count Reality

Beachcomber marketing inflates numbers.

They count every little orifice.

Real count is about 40 actual jets.

Master Twilight is honest about jet types.

Beachcomber:

Around 40 real jets

Only 5 of the expensive large high flow therapy jets

About 13 mid to high flow

Rest are cheap small low flow

Mid grade foot jetting and no real neck jetting

Master Twilight:

12 large high flow therapy jets

2 massive “monster” jets with a dedicated diverter system for feet legs

all the rest are the mid flow therapy jets with a reverse molded neck and shoulder jet system that is highly effective

No cheap low flow filler jets

This is where the gap opens up.

Big high flow jets move muscle. They cost real money.

Small jets feel sharp on a wet test, but don’t deliver over time.

Master’s jet package is easily a $2000 plus upgrade in real value.

Therapy Verdict

Not close.

If you actually want massage, Master Twilight wins.

More large jets, better flow, better plumbing support. twin diverter to double the flow through the main seats and ets if desired.

Beachcomber feels busy.

Master moves muscle.

Overall Build

Both are decent tubs.

But:

Master has better plumbing design

Better jet system

Better long term serviceability

Better real world therapy

Beachcomber is still solid, just using some older methods and padded marketing numbers.

Bottom Line

If you care about soaking and brand feel, both work.

If you care about therapy and long term reliability, Master Twilight is the better build.

they should both come in at similar prices through my buyers service.

Yes. Master Spas is the only one that hits all five.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t other good brands, but they all miss at least one piece.

Jacuzzi, for example, is a solid build overall. The issue is ownership and cost. It’s equity owned, so you’re usually paying about $1,500 extra just for that structure. Then add heavy marketing, branding, and the fact it’s built in Mexico, so you get hit with tariffs. By the time you stack shipping and corporate overhead, you’re often $2,000 to $3,000 higher than you should be.

Master is built in the US, privately held, largest and one of the oldest manufacturers. That shows up in the value.

Artesian is probably the next closest. They do most things right, but they stopped clamping plumbing lines, which is a step back. Still decent, just overpriced for what you get now.

No matter what you end up buying, get on my private buyer service. I save people more than the cost of the service every time. The $99 is the cheapest part of this whole process, and it puts me in your corner.

If a seller I connect you with drops the ball on service, you reach out to me and I step in. Things move fast when I get involved. And on pricing, you’re not negotiating with the same leverage I have. I can get better numbers and make sure you don’t overpay.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

What price did you get in the Twilight 7.2?

I went to a Home Expo where Master Spa had a huge liquidation sale and after some back and forth they offered me the Twilight 7.2 for $12,500. I just started looking and I didn’t know if that was a good price or not, so I passed. I have not gone to their local store yet to see if they would match that price now that the sale is over. I’m also thinking about the Twilight 8.2, but have no idea what a good price is for it. The other spa I like is the Artisan Grand Bahama 52 jet model, which was priced at $16,000 at a local store.

Here’s the reality on that comparison.

First, ignore the jet count game. Forty jets vs fifty two sounds big, it isn’t. The extra twelve are small, low cost jets. Think twenty bucks a piece at the factory level. That does not explain thousands in price difference. What matters is how many large, high flow therapy jets are in the pack. Those are expensive and they actually move muscle. When you look at it that way, the Twilight pack holds its own, especially with the dual foot blasters, that’s about a $750 feature on its own. So from a real therapy and jet cost standpoint, these two tubs are closer than the sticker suggests.

So why the price gap?

Three things.

Ownership. Master is privately held. Artesian went through an equity buyout. Every time that happens, pricing creeps up, usually $1,000 to $2,000 per unit. That’s not build cost, that’s layers, marketing, and investor return. People brush it off, but it shows up in what you pay and often in where they trim on the build. on top of that we see creep int he build, Artesian no longer clamps the plumbing lines they went too a cheaper system but clamping is the gold standard and expensive, you look at the marine industry or heavy industrial its always clamps because that's what works long term

Scale. Master is one of the big three and the last privately held one. Their factory footprint is massive, call it eight to ten times Artesian. Bigger scale means better part pricing, tighter processes, lower cost per unit. That flows straight into value.

How it’s sold. Master leans on event sales and service centers. It’s a lean distribution model. Artesian is dealer heavy. Dealers add margin, overhead, and layers. That model is fading. You don’t need a storefront, you need parts and service. Both brands use mostly standard components, so service networks handle them fine. The old idea that you must have a local dealer to be safe just isn’t true anymore.

On service, this is the shift most people miss. It’s not about distance to a showroom, it’s about access to parts and someone accountable when things go sideways. That’s where we come in.

We can still get that 7.2 done at the show number, or line up an 8.2 at the same level you’re seeing locally, and wrap it with our Buyer Protection. That effectively gives you more leverage than any single dealer relationship. A local dealer might be great, or might disappear when you need them. Then it’s you pushing uphill alone. With us, there’s real pressure behind it. We move a lot of volume, and if a seller drops the ball, we step in and fix it fast. If we see a pattern of bad behavior from a dealer or brand, we cut them off. That matters.

Take that framing and compare again. The tubs are similar on paper. The price difference is ownership structure, scale, and sales model, not some magical upgrade in the Artesian.

Do you want me to lock in that 7.2 number or price, or work on that artesian price? or work out the 8.2 at the same level before you go back to a dealer?

I’m going to focus on Master Spa. When you say work out the 8.2 at the same level, are you talking about the 8.2 at the same price I was offered for the 7.2? And is $12,500 the best price for the 7.2 or can you get that at a better price? I also like the Vital Instinct hot tub at $8545, but they say it’s 6-8 weeks for delivery. Does it really take that long or is it more about proximity to the manufacturing plant in Indiana? How would you compare Master Spa 7.2 and the Vital Instinct?

No, the 8.2 is not the same price as the 7.2. It will be more. You are basically about a $1,000 jump going from the 7.2 to the 8.2. I only brought it up in case you wanted the extra size.

On the 7.2 at $12,500, that is solid. There is might still some room there if it is not already fully loaded with steps, cover lifter, delivery, and install. but I would count on that pri ce as being final, what I can add is ill throw on the buyers protection service .

The Instinct at $8,545 is exactly where it should be. That is the whole point of that line. It used to sit around $11k in retail, now it is direct with the middle cut out.

The 6 to 8 weeks is real. It is not about Indiana distance as much as it is batching, routing, and install scheduling. They stack deliveries by region, so timing depends on where your area falls in the run. Closer does not always mean faster.

Now the real comparison.

The 7.2 and the Instinct are built very similarly. Same factory, self supported shell, full foam, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, wood frame, Balboa gear. No real gap in build quality.

Where they split is jets.

The Instinct is a strong, mid level all around tub. Good mix, good feel, solid for most people.

The Twilight 7.2 is a different animal. It is one of the highest end massage tubs out there. When you judge therapy, look at jet size and flow. Big high flow jets cost real money and move muscle. Small jets are cheap and just feel sharp in a wet test.

The Twilight line carries a much heavier jet package. Roughly a $2,500 jump just in jet cost alone. That is why it lines up more with Artesian Elite, Jacuzzi 400 series, that class of tub.

So simple version.

Instinct, best value under 11k, great all around.

Twilight 7.2, real therapy, much stronger massage, costs more for a reason.

If therapy matters, Twilight wins by a mile. If budget matters, Instinct is the steal.

I'll get My team to reach out with hard final numbers.

I’d like to get one at $12,500 or less. I was just quoted over $21,000 for it!

hey Andrew i have no contact details for you :-) start a new question so i know where you are and how to contact you

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/asktheexperts

what is the price and model?

South Seas is made by Artesian. I’m looking at models 743D and 748L. I don’t know the price they’re asking, I just have the brochure. Internet says they range from $8,400 to $13,000 for the 748L

South Seas is made by Artesian, and overall they’re a decent mid-tier brand built in the US, so you’re not getting hit with tariff pricing like some imports. That said, there are a few trade-offs you should be aware of—especially in that line.

The South Seas series tends to be lighter on insulation, uses a thinner cradle-supported shell, and they’ve moved away from clamping plumbing lines. That last one matters more than people think—it can impact long-term reliability and increase the chance of leaks over time.

On pricing, what you’re seeing online for the 748L ($8,400–$13,000) is pretty typical retail spread. But realistically, you shouldn’t be paying anywhere near the top end of that range if you’re buying smart.

This is where we can help. Through Buyer’s Service, we manage about $30M in purchases annually, so we can usually get you better pricing than you’ll find on your own. More importantly, you’re covered with Buyer’s Protection—so if anything goes sideways with the dealer down the road, we step in and handle it for you.

Before you pull the trigger though, I’d strongly suggest taking a look at the Instinct Spa. For about $8,500, it’s in the same price range but built on a completely different level—heavier shell, better insulation, and fully glued and clamped plumbing lines. It’s a more robust build overall, better jet package, and it comes delivered, installed, and backed with local service plus our protection layer on top.

Bottom line: Artesian South Seas is solid, but if you’re looking for the best bang for the buck and long-term durability, there are better-built options at the same price point.

what is the price and model?

Twilight 8.2

We can you better pricing through the same sellers. was that a base price with cover steps and delivery install? any options or upgrades?

That includes steps, install, chem kit, and a cover. We have not gone through any specs or upgrade options. My wife and I are pretty standard though. We're looking for longevity and the water therapy benefits. We are mostly looking at “out of box” features, although are not opposed to some bumps if they are justified. Appreciate your wisdom and direction on where to go from here Chris.

Honestly i don't recommend any options unless you wanted to go to the salt water system ill put this onto my team and Bill will reach out with more details.

Thank you Chris! Looking forward to connecting with Bill and talking through the next steps in the journey.

Good, you’re focused on therapy. That’s where most people get it wrong.

First, Cal Spas.

What model were you quoted and at what price? Because 15k is high for that line. They’re generally thinner, cradle supported shells, perimeter insulation. Not junk, but not top tier, especially for what you’re trying to do with deep muscle therapy.

Now, for your goal, back and shoulders, strong massage, lounger.

This is where jet design matters way more than brand name.

Big high flow therapy jets move muscle. That costs real money.

Small low flow jets feel good for 5 minutes in a wet test, then disappear over time.

So you want to prioritize:

Real jet count with large high flow jets

Good pump horsepower to actually drive them

Full foam to lock plumbing and keep pressure consistent

At your budget, under 15k, you’re in a great spot.

This is where I’d steer you:

Master Spas Twilight series, especially the TS 6.2 or TS 7.2

Jacuzzi 400 series

Artesian Elite line

Why these:

Twilight is the therapy benchmark for the money. More large high flow jets than most, real muscle movement, not just surface feel. Built right, self supported shell, full foam, clamped plumbing.

Jacuzzi 400 series is their true premium line. Better build than the 200 and 300, stronger jet packages, but you’re paying for branding and tariffs. Still a legit therapy option if priced right.

Artesian Elite has a strong jetting system and good therapy layouts. They slipped a bit after equity ownership and dropped clamping, but still a solid performer if the price is competitive.

Lounger is fine if it fits you. Wet test it. Some people float, some don’t.

You could look at Master Clarity to save money, but for your use case, Twilight is the move. It’s built for exactly what you described.

Keep your name out of dealer systems for now. If you get quotes, send them to me. I’ll route you to the same sellers, get better pricing, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

What size are you thinking, 6 foot compact or a full 7 foot with more room to move?

Good, clear shortlist.

Use case is light family, 2 adults, 3 kids max. That’s a 7 foot tub all day. You don’t need to chase an 8 footer unless you just want the space.

Jacuzzi J245, I’d cross it off.

Jacuzzi is a good brand, but the 200 series is their cut corner line. Thinner build, weaker insulation, basic jet package. Mexico build, plus tariffs, plus heavy marketing. That’s why it’s 10.5k when it should be a couple grand less. You have to get into the 300 series before it’s a real contender.

So now it’s Instinct vs Clarity.

Both come out of the same factory, same core build:

Self supported shell

Full foam

Glued and clamped plumbing

Compression fittings

Balboa systems

They’re built right. That’s why they last.

Clarity Precision 8 at 10k is actually a strong price. It’s bigger, more room to spread out, better if you consistently load it up.

Instinct Pure at 8,545 is the value hammer. Same build quality, just factory direct. We stripped out the dealer margin and marketing. That’s why it’s cheaper. Delivered, installed, covered, national service.

You’re not giving anything up in durability going Instinct. Only thing you’re giving up is a bit of size versus that 8 footer.

Reality check, you won’t have 5 people in there most of the time. It’ll be 2 adults, or kids. A 7 foot tub handles that perfectly.

So it comes down to this:

Want max value, same build, save 1,500 bucks, Instinct. and its covered by my buyers protection

Want the extra space and don’t mind spending it, Precision 8 is a solid buy at that number.

Every brand has a call out charge, but $300 is high unless your remote.

its easy to put in just get them to send the part and DIY or get a local handyperson

Thank you so much!!

Corwin,

Short answer, yeah, you’re getting into throwing good money after bad.

That tub is a lower end build to begin with, and that hard spray foam makes leak repair a nightmare. If it’s already leaking in a manifold, that usually doesn’t get better. It turns into more leaks over time, not less.

On the electrical side, you likely had a surge take out the board, and once you see smoke at the pump connection, you’re chasing multiple failures, not just one clean fix.

Could you throw parts at it and get it running again? Maybe.

Board, pump, even a full SmarTouch pack, you’re into it for 600 to 900 pretty quick. And you still have an 18 year old tub with glue only plumbing and a known leak buried in hard foam.

Also, once you start pulling the pack and moving lines around, yeah, you can absolutely create more leaks. That plumbing is old and not clamped.

If you do anything, keep it cheap. Band aid it.

Better move, if you want to stabilize it a bit, is a Balboa retrofit pack. More reliable system, modern controls, and it’ll drop in fairly clean. At least you’re not putting money back into a low end control system at end of life. I can get you those Balboa parts at the right price if you go that route.

But big picture, I wouldn’t sink real money into this. It’s at the age where things stack up fast.

Are you trying to squeeze another season out of it, or thinking replacement soon?

thanks for the input. I am trying to see if I can get some more life out of it for sure.

If I only swap out the board for $315, I eliminate moving around the plumbing. HOWEVER, is that motor going to cause a problem with the board? Or is the motor fine? It seems like running the motor is what ultimately caused the board to go. I’m not sure if theat motor took the spike or if it did how that would cause it to burn the board.

Regarding new: I had a chance to buy a new Hatana made by clearwater for about $6k at a local dealer. They have had a good run with these spas. It seems that their processes per watching the factory video are good and they glue and clamp. they don’t shoot a lot of insulation but I’m in a semi mild climate in central California so I’m not concerned about that. The shell does use large round PVC pipes placed in various locations to support the tub. Not sure about that but in theory it seems like a good idea. For me, the access to plumbing is very clean considering my “history” of leaks with all previous spas.

The instinct you are selling look good but you are across the country.

Thanks!

On the repair first.

A bad pump can absolutely take out a board, but usually it’s not the motor “spiking” it randomly. It’s things like a short, water intrusion, or a seized pump pulling high amps. If the motor still runs smooth, no noise, no heat, no tripping, it’s probably fine. If it’s been cooking or noisy, it likely stressed the board.

Swapping just the board for $315 is the cheap test. If the pump is bad, worst case you burn another board, but that’s not common unless the motor is clearly failing. I’d ohm the motor and check amp draw before trusting it.

Now the new tub idea.

Clearwater used to be solid. Then LPI bought them. Now it’s mass merchant territory.

Those big PVC pipes you’re seeing under the shell, that’s cradle support. It’s how you prop up a cheaper, thinner shell. It’s not the same as a self supported shell, not even close. That difference is about $1k to $1.5k in build cost, and it shows up over time.

That’s why that tub is 6k.

Access looks nice, sure. But you’re trading long term shell strength and insulation to get that.

Even in central California, full foam still matters. Nights cool off, and more important, it locks the plumbing in place. Less movement, fewer leaks. It’s not just about heat.

On Instinct.

It’s not “me selling a tub”. You buy factory direct. We stripped out dealer margin and marketing. That same level of build was 11k to 12k in stores, now around mid 8s delivered, installed, cover included.

Self supported shell

Full foam

Glued and clamped plumbing

Compression fittings

Real jet package, not a bunch of small feel-good jets

You can’t touch that at 6k retail. You’re in the 11k plus range to match it in a showroom.

And service is national, parts are standard, no proprietary traps. Plus I back it with Buyer Protection, so if anything drags, I step in.

Bottom line.

Fix the board if you want more life, that’s a reasonable gamble.

But don’t kid yourself on that 6k tub, you’re buying down to a weaker shell and lighter build to hit that price.

If you’re replacing, spend once, not twice.

Do you want to roll the dice on the $315 fix, or are you ready to replace and be done with it?

I appreciate this advice. You’re a wonderful resource and sounding board.

I think I’ll go for the fix. And , the tip on checking the motor is appreciated.

if that fails, I’ll be inquiring about the INSTINCT!!

Jerrit,

That 2017 Coast at 7k is overpriced. It’s a 4k tub, maybe.

Coast is a thinner, cradle supported shell, no clamps on the plumbing. There are a lot of build cuts there. It’s a smaller regional brand, and those guys just can’t compete anymore. The big players buy parts cheaper, build better, and have way more support behind them.

I wouldn’t put money into a Coast, and definitely not a 9 year old one at that price.

On the jet side, you’re already seeing the problem. Seat fit matters. If your wife is floating out of seats, she’s not getting proper therapy. And if the jet package isn’t built around good lower back pressure, it’s not going to magically show up later.

I can dig through your local market and find better used options for you, stuff that actually holds value and performs.

What kind of budget are you trying to stay around?

Krista,

Good comparison. These are a lot closer than people think.

They’re built in the same factory, same core DNA. Both are self supported shells, glued and clamped plumbing, compression jet fittings, full foam insulation, wood frames, vinyl skirts. No meaningful difference in build quality.

Delivery and install, same story. Both come through the same local dealer network and include cover and setup. Steps, lifters, chemicals, those are dealer add ons, not manufacturer. Dealers mark that stuff up hard, we can source the same gear cheaper direct.

On features.

Instinct does not include EcoPure or the BioMagnetic therapy system. EcoPure is just a filter cartridge system, similar idea to Frog. It can be added, but honestly, not a huge value add.

The price difference is not build, it’s business model.

That Vital used to sit in stores around 11k. We stripped out about 30 percent in marketing, branding, dealer overhead, and sell it factory direct. That’s why it lands at 8545.

Clarity at 9800 is still solid, just carrying more retail overhead.

Real difference comes down to seating.

Vital has more contoured, bucket style seating. You sit down into it, more of your legs are supported.

Clarity is more open bench seating. Better if you want to move around or pack more people in, but less full body contact in each seat.

Both are good tubs. This is layout and price, not quality.

Also, I can get you either of these through the same dealer, and include Buyer Protection so if anything goes sideways, I step in and handle it.

Do you prefer the bucket seating feel, or the more open bench style?

@Krista- where did you find the Precision 7 for that price?

Adam

Colorado, that dealer buys a lot of blems and seconds,

Robin,

Yeah, you can get open cell spray foam kits. They exist, but they’re pricey and a bit overkill unless you’re doing a big section.

If this is a small repair, don’t overthink it. Grab a can of standard expanding foam from a hardware store and fill the area. It’s closed cell, not identical, but for patch work it’s totally fine. You’re not going to see a real world downside unless you’re redoing a large portion of the tub.

If you want a cleaner, removable option, here’s a solid trick.

Take regular pink fiberglass insulation, keep it loose and fluffy, don’t compress it. Put it into garbage bags and seal them up, then pack those into the cavity. That gets you decent insulation and you can pull it back out easily if you ever need to service it again.

That’s honestly the most practical DIY approach.

How big of an area are you trying to refill?

Jenn,

Cold like that, full foam is non negotiable.

You want the highest R value you can get, and full foam gives you 2 to 3 times the insulation of those perimeter systems. That’s what keeps operating cost and freeze risk down in sub zero stretches.

In summer, same system still works. The equipment bay can vent heat, and it pulls heat off the motors so they don’t cook themselves. So you get efficiency in winter and safe operation in summer.

Perimeter systems are the opposite. Low insulation, they bleed heat in winter, and in summer they trap motor heat in that cavity. That overheats components over time. Cheap to build, not great to own.

On brands.

Jacuzzi, solid tub, but you’re not wrong. They can feel finicky because of proprietary systems. Since moving production to Mexico and with corporate ownership, pricing has climbed and you’re paying a couple grand extra for marketing and tariffs.

Artesian, better value. US built, good overall package. The miss is they stopped clamping plumbing lines. Clamping is the gold standard. You see it in marine, heavy industry, anywhere leaks are unacceptable. Glue only works, clamps make sure it stays that way long term. So they dropped a notch there, still decent, just not as tight as they used to be.

Arctic, I’d pass. Good shell, but the rest doesn’t hold up. Lower end jets sourced out of China, rebranded, older two part jet housings instead of compression fittings, and a weaker insulation approach. Some models mix in cheaper proprietary controls. It’s not where I’d spend money for your climate.

If you want something that just works in that environment, Master is still the safest play. Full foam, self supported shell, clamped plumbing, standard parts, built for exactly this kind of swing.

Also, are you thinking about going salt or staying traditional?

Last piece.

Use the private buyer service. It’s $99 right now. We’ll get on a quick call, map exactly what you want, then I go negotiate with dealers or suppliers in your area.

We save you money, period.

And you get Buyer Protection. If anything goes sideways, you call me, I call them, it gets handled. Dealers know who we are, they stay sharp when we’re involved.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Do you want me to map out a couple specific models that fit your climate and size next?

Hi Chris! Yes, I would like to get the private buyer service for $99. Thank you! Look forward to hearing from you.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs just click this link and sign up :-)

Yeah, that’s not a surprise. Covana failures in that setup were common, especially on big swim spas. Once the cover gets waterlogged or the lift is even slightly out of spec, it’s a downhill slide to exactly where you are now.

Convert a Lift works, but 14K is real money for what it is. You’re basically buying another mechanical system that still depends on a heavy foam cover behaving properly. It’s not a bad product, just not great value at that number.

Better path is simpler.

Roll up covers are the most reliable option on swim spas. Less weight, less strain, fewer failure points. We can usually get those at a much better number than 14K, and they hold up.

There’s also a solid electric lifter option that’s purpose built for swimmers, lighter duty than Covana, but way less prone to catastrophic failure.

Standard lifters only make sense if you go back to a traditional cover, which on a 19 foot swim spa gets old fast.

I’d skip putting another 14K into a similar style system unless you really want that gazebo look.

I’ll have Guen reach out with some current options and pricing so you can see real numbers.

Do you want the lowest hassle option, or are you trying to keep the full automated cover setup?

Here’s the straight answer.

Yes, Master is a very well built tub. It is also one of the last big players that is still privately held, and that matters because it keeps pricing down versus the corporate and equity owned brands.

At a $5k budget, you are not getting into anything well built new. That is just the reality. At that number, you are far better off looking at a good condition used tub in your local market. You will get a lot more for your money.

Oil prices do matter.

Hot tubs are mostly plastic, and plastic comes from oil. When oil goes up, material and shipping costs go up, so pricing follows.

Lounger is easy.

Every brand offers loungers, no issue there.

Rodents come down to how the cabinet is built and sealed.

Most modern tubs are pretty similar here. Composite or vinyl style skirts tend to be your best bet. That said, if you have a real mouse problem, they can get into almost anything. They can squeeze through tiny gaps. Dealing with the rodent issue itself is usually more effective than trying to “rodent proof” a tub.

0 percent financing is not real.

It is built into the price. Always.

There is a cash price, and there is a financed price. Dealers can offer 0 percent because they are prepaying the interest to the finance company and rolling it into what you pay. Nobody is giving away free money.

So big picture.

If you want durable and long term, $5k means used.

If you want new and built right, you need to move up from there.

If you want help finding a solid used option or planning a step up later, I can point you the right way and keep you out of trouble.

Do you want to hunt for a quality used tub now? I can look at your local market and see if there are any gems for you or plan a new buy later in the year?

I would rather buy new. I guess I didn’t expect that pricing is what it is! I would prefer then to get new and I will be more prepared to look in the fall. How does your process work?

Lauren,

Simple.

Our private buyer service is $99. We save you more than that or we refund it.

We get on a quick call, figure out exactly what you want, size, seating, lounger, budget. Then we go out to dealers and suppliers in your area and negotiate the deal for you.

You don’t shop. You don’t haggle. We do it.

Then we introduce you to the seller with pricing already handled.

Big piece, Buyer Protection.

When dealers know we’re involved, they behave. Everyone in the industry knows us. They know we send a lot of buyers their way, and they know we’ll step in if something goes sideways. So you get taken care of properly.

That’s really the edge. Better pricing, less hassle, and someone in your corner after the sale.

Are you planning to buy right in the fall or just starting to research for now?

There is no time limit on the service. https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Yeah, the problem with the Grandee is they use that weird shell and high density foam, and leaks are almost impossible to fix. I’ve had a lot of people end up junking tubs that weren’t that old because it just gets ridiculous, time and cost chasing a leak. Water shows up in one corner, the issue is somewhere else. It’s a bad system.

First thing, Hot Springs locks you in on power. You’ve got a 20 amp and a 30 amp line. That has to be replaced with a single 50 amp line, and no, you can’t combine them, but the cost of replacing that line isn’t going to be anywhere near the cost of getting into another Hot Springs. They’re just ridiculously priced right now for no good reason.

Beyond that, you’re fine. We can run you through the private buyer service, save you money, and look at a few solid options.

Twilight is an awesome tub. Built like a tank. One of the best on the market right now. Master is privately held, largest manufacturer in the US, and one of the biggest sellers. Meanwhile Hot Springs, Jacuzzi, those corporate brands are pricing themselves out. Mexico builds, tariffs, shipping, heavy marketing, it all adds up.

Instinct is a crazy good value. Same level of build thinking, very reliable, strong jet package. The only reason it’s that price is we stripped out the retail markup and marketing. It was an 11 to 12k tub in stores. Now it’s about 30 percent less because we don’t need the showroom overhead. We’ve sold a ton, zero complaints, zero problems.

If you jump on the $99 service, no matter what you buy, I’ll save you money and back it with Buyer Protection. If service ever drags, you call me and I handle it. and ill refund it if i cant save you money.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thank you for your response. Where can you wet test the Indistinct hot tub to know which way to go? Indistinct or Twilight? Most similar to therapeutic soak in a Grandee. Ready to select $99 service. Thanks

Here’s the reality.

If you could wet test an Instinct, it would not be $8,500. It would be $11k to $12k like it used to be when it sat in showrooms.

You are not wet testing it, and that is intentional. That is how we strip out about 30 percent of the cost, dealer margin, floor space, inventory, sales staff, marketing. All the stuff that does nothing for build quality.

Also, most people do not wet test anyway. It is a tiny number, maybe 3 to 4 percent. Same with dealers, about 80 percent of tubs are bought outside that model now.

Now performance.

Instinct is going to land very close to a Grandee. Maybe a touch behind, but in the same lane. Similar pump size, similar count of large high flow therapy jets. It actually has a better neck and shoulder setup.

Twilight is a step up.

Different league on jetting.

It runs a lot more large high flow therapy jets. That is one of the most expensive jet packages in the market for a reason. It moves more muscle, period.

If you want to simulate before you buy, go wet test comparable tubs.

For Instinct feel, look at Clarity, Jacuzzi J345, or Bullfrog X7.

Those are accessible in dealer showrooms.

For Twilight level therapy, look at Twilight series itself, Artesian Elite, or Jacuzzi 400 series.

Just understand what you are doing.

You are jumping from an $8,500 factory direct buy to $12k plus retail to get that wet test experience.

That is the trade.

If your goal is Grandee level therapy or better, Instinct gets you close, Twilight passes it.

If you are ready to move, keep your name out of dealer systems. I will route you to the same supply, get better numbers, and back it with Buyer Protection.

Do you want to stay in that value lane with Instinct or step up into high level therapy in the $13+ range?

Thank you for your email as I have signed up for your Buying Service. This is my second Grandee hot tub and I serviced the tub myself replacing the front and back pumps as well as the plastic spa pac box. I am not sure I want to spend the time working on fixing leaks as the hot tub is 16 - 17 years old. Therefore, I think I have 3 choices of hot tubs to select from; the Pure Instinct, the MS Clarity Precision 7 or the Twilight Series 7.25. I am open to purchasing any one of these three and look forward to Hot Tub University’s assistance in the purchase of the one I select to reduce my final cost. Thank you

Short answer, no, 12.9 is too high for an X7.

That’s a cradle supported shell, not a self supported build. It should be closer to that 10k range. The problem is Bullfrog pricing has crept up, so 12.9 is what we’re seeing, but it’s not great value.

Through our side, we can usually knock that down a bit, call it around 12.5, but even there, you’re still paying a premium for a weaker shell design.

Here’s the real pivot. Once you’re in that 13 to 13.5 range, you’re into something like a Master LH. Same size class, but a fully self supported shell, better overall construction, better long term play, especially in northern Ontario where insulation and structure matter.

If you really want to stay near 10k, I’d be looking at the used market. That’s where the real deals are at that number. Happy to scan your area and see what’s out there.

What’s your postal code so I can check local used options?

I seem to be focused on the Bullfrog. Offered the Bullfrog Calm 6 for $8995 plus tax. Incl lid lifter, stairs, delivery. It’s a plug and play. price is on target. good for the north?

Debbie, the price is on target, but the tub has a few red flags for the north.

The Calm 6 is a plug and play, so understand what that means. It is easy to wire, but it is weaker for cold weather recovery. In real winter, 110v spas usually heat slower and struggle more when the cover is open they lose heat fast and be cool in 10-15 minutes on a cold day..

Build wise, Bullfrog is not junk, but this one is a cost cut platform. Thin cradle supported shell, high density foam packed around everything. That helps hold the shell and insulate it, but it is brutal if you ever need plumbing access. If it leaks, you can be spending thousands digging through hard foam and because this type of foam does not absorb water the leak might be in one corner and by the time it wiggle through the foam and finds an exit it might be dripping on the opposite end! when you hear nightmares from people about full foam spas this is the product them mean, the better more expensive way to do this is build a strong fully self supporting shell that coast $100 or more then use a special open celled foam that is expensive but allows easy access to leaks because water will go right through it it will drip directly beneath the leak and the foam can be removed easily.

Jet package is light too. This is a soaker, not a therapy spa. Most of the jets are small low flow jets. They feel busy, but they do not move much muscle mass.

At $8,995 plus tax in Canada, I would not call it a ripoff. I would call it “okay money for a limited tub.” Before I bought it, I would check the used market and see if there is a better built full size 240v acrylic spa around the same money.

Send me your postal code and I’ll see if there are any gems around you. If you can uo the budget to the $11k range you will be in good reliable build territory

What postal code are you shopping from?

We are in Sudbury

Nice :-) My sister lives on lake Nippissing :-)

Cant find anything worthwhile in the area :-(

there is this but its likely a fishing ad but if its not its a good buy and way better build.

https://www.facebook.com/share/1HRz4Wso6U/

John, straight up, those are low end tubs.

Luxury and Sienna are basically online rebrands. Thin shells, light insulation, no clamps on plumbing, and service is the real issue. When something breaks, you’re hunting for a local tech on your own. Warranty on paper looks fine, execution is where it falls apart.

The jet layout sounds good on paper, but four small 2 inch jets aren’t real therapy. They feel sharp for a few minutes, but they don’t move muscle mass in your hamstrings and hips. For lower back and legs, you want fewer, larger, high flow jets that actually push water.

In Florida, you don’t have to fight cold, but build quality and service still matter. I wouldn’t put real money into one of these unless it’s dirt cheap and you’re okay treating it as disposable.

At a similar budget, we should at least look at better built entry options or even used from a premium brand, you’ll get way better therapy and fewer headaches.

What prices are you seeing on those models?

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your honest appraisal. I have not been able to find a single person hot tub from some of the other manufacturers. We have limited space and this product fit the dimensions That said, can you recommend a few companies that you know offer a single person hot tub that would fit my needs?

I appreciate your input.

Sincerely,

John F.

I looked around pretty hard, none of the good builders make a true one person tub.

That’s usually a red flag. When you get that small, you lose real insulation, proper plumbing layout, and meaningful jet power. Most of what’s out there in that size is rotomold or light build, not something I’d recommend if you care about longevity.

Also worth thinking about, if you’re not a smaller person, you’ll displace a lot of water in a tight shell. Every time you get out, the level drops and you’re topping it off with a hose. Gets old fast.

So before I point you in a direction, I need the “why.”

Is this a hard space constraint, a budget thing, or just preference? And roughly how big is the footprint you’re trying to stay within?

If you’ve got even a little wiggle room, a compact 2 to 3 person from a real builder will be a much better long term move.

Quick one, what’s driving the one person size, space, budget, or just preference?

Size of space and budget. I am 5’6” and weigh 160lbs, so I don’t think I am going to displace that much water. I am constrained by the width more than the length on my lanai. Unless I can fit a corner tub I’m probably going to have to rethink the whole idea.

Thank you Chris. I will let you know if I can take this further.

You’ve got a solid shortlist, and you’re thinking about it the right way, value over time, not just the upfront price. When you apply your five build factors, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fit jets, OEM components, and full foam insulation, there’s really only one manufacturer on your list that consistently checks every box, and that’s Master Spas. Jacuzzi comes close, but they modify standard Balboa systems into proprietary versions, which doesn’t improve quality, it just locks you into higher priced parts down the road.

Ownership matters here too. Master is privately held and US built. Bullfrog, Jacuzzi, and Hot Spring are all corporate or equity owned, which adds cost through marketing and overhead. You’re also seeing a pricing bump on Jacuzzi and Hot Spring because they’re built in Mexico, so tariffs and shipping are baked in. Bullfrog and Master are US built, so they avoid that layer of cost.

Looking at each model, the Bullfrog M9 at $28k is the one that makes the least sense. It uses a cradle supported ABS shell, which is a cost reduction, not a premium feature, and it doesn’t meet your self supported shell requirement. The JetPak system adds complexity and more potential failure points. At that price, it should be leading this group, and it simply isn’t. You’re paying for marketing and aesthetics more than build quality.

The Master LSX 900 at $21.5k is the strongest option here. It hits all five of your criteria and pairs that with a top tier jet package. This is where the real value shows up, large high flow jets that actually move muscle and hold up over time. If your goal is long term ownership with less hassle and better performance, this is the best tub on your list.

The Master Balance 9 at $15.5k shares the same underlying build quality, which is excellent, but it steps down in the jet package. Fewer large jets, less overall therapy power. It’s still a good tub and a strong value, but it’s not in the same performance class as the LSX or the Twilight series.

The Jacuzzi J509 at $19k is a solid tub, but you’re paying extra for the brand, the distribution model, and the Mexico build. The proprietary parts angle shows up over time in higher service costs, and while the jetting is decent, it’s not at the level of the higher end Master models.

The Hot Spring Grandee at $16k is the weakest from a therapy standpoint. It leans heavily on smaller jets, has more proprietary components than anything else on your list, and is also a Mexico build under a large corporate structure. It will work, but it’s not delivering the same performance or long term value.

On your idea of buying two lower cost tubs over time versus one higher end unit, it sounds logical, but in practice it usually doesn’t play out that clean. You end up paying for multiple installs, electrical work, and dealing with downtime and replacement cycles, all while living with lower performance day to day. A better built tub with better plumbing, jets, and components typically means fewer service issues and a better ownership experience over the long haul.

One thing missing from your list is the Master Twilight series. If therapy is even part of your goal, that’s an important comparison point. It often lands below the LSX in price but still delivers a significantly stronger jet package than the Balance, Jacuzzi, or Hot Spring. The difference comes down to jet economics, large high flow jets are expensive and do the real work, while smaller jets are cheaper and mostly fill space. That’s why tubs like the LSX and Twilight feel noticeably better after 20 minutes, not just during a quick wet test.

On pricing, every number you listed is a bit high. There’s room to move on all of these, typically $500 to $1,500, sometimes more depending on the model. More importantly, I can control the process so you don’t get pushed around after the sale. We don’t sell tubs, we connect you to the same sellers, lock in better pricing, and wrap it with Buyer Protection so if anything drifts, you’ve got backup.

Where this lands is pretty straightforward. The LSX 900 is your best combination of build quality and performance. The Balance 9 is a solid step down if you want to save money. The Bullfrog M9 is overpriced for what it is. Jacuzzi sits in the middle but carries extra cost. Hot Spring is the lowest in terms of therapy output. If therapy matters, you should also be seriously looking at the Twilight line.

Keep your name out of dealer systems for now. Send me the written quotes and I’ll tighten this up, improve the numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection. https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Do you want to lean into maximum therapy, or stay closer to the mid teens and accept a step down in performance?

Kyle, good questions. You’re thinking about the right stuff.

On maintenance, salt is oversold. Most systems are just dumb timers, they generate chlorine whether the water needs it or not. That’s where you get the yo yo chemistry.

The one that’s actually different is Master’s. It’s on demand, tests and doses as needed, runs about 30 percent lower salt, holds around 1 ppm steady. That’s why it’s the low maintenance option right now.

Your well water matters. High iron means you’ll want a pre filter on fill and probably a metal sequestrant at startup. Not a deal breaker, just part of the plan.

Lounger, your friend isn’t wrong, but it depends. Loungers can float people and limit seating. If you mostly relax and don’t care about a “captain’s seat,” skip it. Open seating is more flexible, especially with kids.

Jets, same idea. Lots of small jets are marketing. Real therapy is fewer, larger, high flow jets that move muscle. If you mostly soak quietly, don’t overbuy on jet count.

Service in Spokane, no issue. Master doesn’t rely on traditional dealers, they run service teams and depots. There are tons of units in your area. Parts are standard, Balboa systems, easy swaps. You’re covered.

Site visits, don’t stress it. We can do a quick video call and dial in placement, pad, access, electrical. If you still want a local visit, we can route you through a seller and they’ll handle it like normal. Using our buyer service doesn’t change that, it just gets you better pricing and oversight.

Reality is dealers are a big cost layer, usually 1k to 1.5k baked into the tub. This route cuts that out. Same or better service, better numbers.

We don’t sell tubs. We route you to the right source, get you better pricing, and back it with Buyer Protection. If anything goes sideways, you text me and I handle it.

Next step is simple, we narrow size and layout based on your space and use, then line up the best option and pricing.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Do you want a lounger or stick with open seating?

Ian, good start.

Beachcomber is the better build over Arctic, not even close. Arctic is heavy on marketing. Decent shells, but they cheap out on parts, Rising Dragon jets rebranded, no clamps on plumbing, and perimeter style insulation that looks good in a brochure but isn’t as efficient in the real world.

Beachcomber is a step up, but stay out of the 300 series. Non removable skirts, total nightmare if you ever have a leak. Look 500 series and up if you go that route.

Another one to look at is BeWell. Canadian, generally solid. Insulation is a bit lighter, but overall a decent mid range option.

On the “made in Canada” angle, don’t overvalue it. Most of the guts, pumps, heaters, control systems, all come out of the US anyway. Canadian builds often end up more expensive because they’re importing those parts, so you’re not really gaining anything except a higher price tag in a lot of cases.

If you’re open to it, the better value play is still US built, privately held, full foam, self supported shell, clamped plumbing. That’s where the long term durability and cost savings show up.

For your setup, 6 person, no lounger, daily use, I’d focus on simple open seating, good insulation, and solid primary jets, not a ton of small ones.

If you want, I can line up a couple specific models that hit that sweet spot and get you pricing through our buyer service.

Do you want to stay strictly Canadian or open to better value options outside that?

Thanks Chris!

On the buy Canadian front, that is definitely my going-in play but I am realist looking for a long-term quality tub which can be serviced locally and easily. I see Master Spas all over this fabulous Q&A but don’t know if they have Vancouver dealers? That said, with Beachcomber in my backyard I’m wondering if there is any point looking further if I can find a layout I like (4 adult-sized corner seats, no lounger). I’m going to hit the Beachcomber and BeWell sites hard and see if I can find models that hit my wish list and go from there. If there are 1 or 2 models for each you might suggest I look at first, I’d love that! Same goes for Master if they have reliable, local service dealer.

Cheers!

Build quality is simple. We rank on a few things that actually matter.

First, the shell.

Beachcomber is a good shell. Master is a good shell. Jacuzzi is a good shell. BeWell has a decent shell.

Next is plumbing reliability.

This comes down to clamped plumbing lines and compression fittings at the shell. That beats the older two part silicone jet systems for long term leak resistance.

Then insulation.

Full foam, high R value. It costs more, but it works. It is the only type that would pass in a regulated industry like housing. Perimeter systems are about saving money, not performance.

Frame.

Wood or composite is what you want. Steel is cheaper, easier to mass produce, and marketed as stronger, but that is not where the value is.

Parts.

You want standard North American OEM components. Balboa, Waterway, Gecko, CMP. Stuff you can actually get. Not proprietary connectors that lock you into a brand for service. That is good for the manufacturer, not for you.

Ownership.

Private ownership matters. Equity ownership adds cost fast. You typically see about a $1,500 increase per unit once a brand gets acquired. That is marketing and overhead, not better build.

Where it’s built.

Mexico production can mean lower labor, but you add tariffs and import costs, so pricing climbs anyway.

That’s why Beachcomber ranks well.

They do most of the important things right. Just make sure you are in a higher line without the non removable skirt. Plumbing is solid overall, but they are likely still using the older two part jet system, so a small step down on the plumbing score, not a deal breaker.

Master hits all of it.

They check every box on that list. That has been consistent for over 15 years. Nothing new there.

Jacuzzi is solid.

Good build, but corporate owned, Mexico built, and you are paying for tariffs and heavy marketing.

All three have representation in your area.

Now the dealer piece.

This gets misunderstood.

Fewer than 20 percent of tubs are bought through dealers now. The world moved on. You do not need a dealer network the way you did 15 years ago.

What matters is service availability.

There are independent service companies in every major market now.

Manufacturers know this. Many have reduced dealer networks and built out service support instead.

Master is a good example.

They have service coverage everywhere, plus a Vancouver west coast dealer if you want that route.

Some brands are still intentionally dealer centric.

Hot Spring, Caldera, Jacuzzi, Sundance.

They use more proprietary parts and connection points to keep you tied into their dealer ecosystem. That is great for corporate profit, not ideal for the end user.

That’s the landscape.

What models are you zeroing in on right now?

Thanks again Chris. Here’s my list after some website digging (ie: no dealer contact):

Beachcomber

Model 570 Hybrid $18500 CAD anniversary edition inc anniversary pkg

Model 590 LEEP $15200 CAD inc select pkg

Model 720 Hybrid $22000 CAD inc deluxe pkg

Master Spas

Clarity Precision 7/8 (no website pricing)

Twilight 7.25/8.25 (no website pricing)

I’m sure there are add-ons etc that I need and don’t need but I’ve learned I feel much better at or below the 20K CAD range. Does that rule out Master Spas?

Cheers

Ian,

Yeah, those Beachcomber numbers are just too high.

And it’s not just the price, it’s what you’re getting. They play the jet count game hard. When they say 100 plus jets, they’re counting holes. In reality you’re in a 20 to 30 jet tub. A few decent high flow jets, a lot of small ones. Feels flashy, doesn’t deliver long term.

That 720 at 22k is the big miss. You’re getting maybe six real high flow therapy jets and a bunch of mid flow. That’s a mid tier tub dressed up as premium. No way that’s worth 22k.

Also, avoid the Hybrid system. Dealers will try to sell it as an upgrade. It’s not. It’s old external equipment design. You lose all the motor heat, which matters a lot in Canada. A tub can sit around 80 degrees just off waste heat. Hybrid throws that away, and you’re pushing hot water outside the insulated shell. In a power outage, that gear can freeze fast, and that’s not covered. If you stay Beachcomber, go LEEP.

Now the part that actually matters.

Through our private buyer service, we can get those Beachcomber numbers down. Same tubs, just not retail pricing.

But the bigger win is Master.

At retail, Twilight would likely land outside your 20k comfort zone. Through our private buyer service, we buy about 30 million a year, so we get real discounts.

Clarity comes into the mid teens CAD.

Twilight 7.25 or 8.25, which is a completely different level of therapy, we can usually pull that in around your 20k line, sometimes under. Bigger jets, real neck system, big foot dome, dual diverters. That’s why it actually moves muscle.

So no, Master is not ruled out. It’s where the best value is once pricing is handled properly.

Quick clarity on how we work.

We don’t sell tubs. We introduce you to the same local sellers or factory direct, renegotiate the deal, and get you better numbers. Both sides are going to take good care of you.

Buyer Protection means if anything goes sideways, service, delays, whatever, you text me and I lean on them to fix it.

The private buyer service is 140 CAD. If we don’t save you more than that, we refund it. On a deal like this, we’re going to save you way more.

Add ons, ignore for now. Dealers mark that stuff up, we can source it cheaper direct.

Next step, don’t contact dealers yet. Keep your name out of their systems. get on my service we can get this done right https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thanks again Chris. I’ve done some soul searching, and a LOT of website searching too ;) , and have pretty much landed on the Clarity or Twilight as the only options with decent 4-corner seating for adults. (Not sure if 7ft or 8ft is the right size). I get that they are in different leagues but I’m wondering what I am getting for 5K’ish by moving up to the Twilight (other than jet number/power/size which as I said in the beginning is not my priority). Thoughts?

Would love to see these tubs if you know anywhere that has them displayed in the BC lower mainland.

Appreciate your time as always Chris,

Ian

Hey Ian The only real difference between the Clarity spa and the Twilight spa is the jet package.

There is a new location opening 19888 Langley Bypass Unit 100, Langley, BC, V3A 4Y1 Phone(403) 770-9564

not sure if they are open yet or not.

keep you details private and once you have prices and decide on a model ill get your pricing better through the same seller

Perfect! Thanks so much Chris. I went to sign up for the PBS and only saw a USD option…is there a different signup page for Canadians?

Also, I confirmed the Langley location is open and would like to go visit them but figured we’d better get the PBS signup sorted first so I follow the process correctly.

Cheers,

Ian

No its hte same one, its $99 us or around $140 cdn, were from Canada as well :-)

Charles, straight answer.

You’re dealing with real muscle pain, neck, upper back, legs. That’s a jet problem, not a soaking problem.

Twilight 6.2 vs Instinct, not the same lane.

Twilight 6.2 is built for therapy. More large high flow jets, better pump setup, actually moves muscle mass. That’s why it costs more.

Instinct is value. Same core build, self supported shell, clamped plumbing, full foam, Balboa gear. But lighter jet package. Solid, just not as aggressive on deep tissue.

So decision is simple.

Fix the body, Twilight.

Save money and still get a legit tub, Instinct.

Now pricing.

Our private buyer service usually saves about 500 bucks. Costs 99. You also get Buyer Protection, which is where this really pays off. If anything goes sideways, we step in and push it through.

If you go Instinct, you don’t need the service for the tub price.

We already did that work. That spa used to be 11k to 12k in stores. We stripped out dealer margin and marketing, got it factory direct in the mid 8s, delivered, installed, cover included. You won’t beat it.

But if you do grab the buyer service and choose Instinct, we’ll apply that 99 toward accessories, lifter, steps, chemicals, whatever you need. So it doesn’t get wasted.

If you go Twilight, that’s where we help you negotiate and protect the deal.

Quick salt note.

Most salt is dumb timer chlorine, higher salt, yo yo chemistry. Master’s is on demand, about 30 percent lower salt, holds around 1 ppm steady. That’s why it works.

Keep your name out of dealer systems.

If you get a written quote on the Twilight 6.2, send it over. I’ll tighten it up and cover you with Buyer Protection.

Are you leaning toward fixing the pain with Twilight, or keeping it tight on budget with Instinct?

Hey Barrett,

Yeah, I know that market well.

You’re right on Arctic. I want to like them, Canadian build and all, but the shell is the best part. After that, it drops off. Two part silicone jet bodies, no clamped plumbing, lighter insulation. Not a disaster brand, but not top tier either.

Best built option there is Master Spas. They’re tanks. Still privately held, which matters. Less overhead, better value, better consistency. One of the biggest builders in the world and the last big independent.

In Halifax, Teresa Shea at Hot Tub Universe is solid. Good service, good operation, and the product is right.

You’ve also got Wellis at KC’s in Fall River. That’s my son’s shop. Not quite at the Master level on build, but good consistency, solid reliability, strong automation. They’ve been performing well.

Beachcomber is okay if you stay in the higher lines, 500 or 700 series. Avoid the low end stuff, especially anything with non removable panels. That becomes a service nightmare.

There’s also Jacuzzi in the market, but in Canada it gets expensive fast. Mexico build, corporate ownership, tariffs, shipping, markup. You’re paying a premium without getting anything meaningfully better.

Big picture, I know all these owners.

Get on my private buyer service. It’s 140 bucks up there. I’ll save you way more than that on the deal, and I’ll route you through the right people.

More important, you get Buyer Protection. If anything goes sideways, you call me, I push the right buttons, it gets handled.

That’s the real advantage.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Sundance and Jacuzzi, same factory in Mexico, same equity ownership.

Hot Spring and Caldera, same story, big corporate, Mexico build.

That’s why you’re seeing low 20s. Corporate layers, tariffs, marketing, it all stacks up in the price.

Harmonic is not in that same build class.

You’re looking at a thinner, cradle supported shell, no clamped plumbing, lighter insulation. It’s just not comparable to what you’re seeing in Sundance or Hot Spring, even if the price looks attractive.

To match that level of build, you’re looking at Master Spas, Artesian, maybe Bullfrog X Series.

Now, on massage, ignore the brochure talk.

It’s all about jet size. Big, high flow jets move muscle. Small jets don’t. Doesn’t matter how many jets they list or who makes them.

Look at the shell. Where are the big jets, and do they hit the areas you care about.

That’s the whole game.

Big takeaway, no matter what you do, get on my private buyer service.

It’s 99 bucks. We’ve run it for 15 years, never had a complaint. We’ll save you more than that or refund it.

More important, you get Buyer Protection. Anyone we connect you with knows we’re involved, and they take care of you. If they don’t, I step in and fix it.

That’s the leverage.

What kind of prices are you getting on those big tubs, and what’s your real target budget?

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Short answer, not fully back yet.

There’s been massive demand because it’s way ahead of anything else out there. That’s created supply issues.

All Master tubs are salt ready, so when the module is available, it just plugs in.

There are still some units floating around, but they’re hard to find right now. Expect fuller availability this summer.

Are you planning to run salt right away or just want the option later?

We got our tub late last year and we’ve been running the standard chlorine version which makes one a bit itchy so we’d like to move up to the salt water system at some point. We can wait till summer.

Thanks.

Start with us, not local.

Get on the private buyer service. It’s 99 bucks. I’ll save you more than that or refund it. More important, you get Buyer Protection. If anyone drags their feet, we step in and fix it. Service is night and day better when we’re involved.

On budget, 13k is the line.

Under that in retail, you’re basically getting the same class as Instinct. That’s why we built it. Largest US manufacturer, stripped out dealer markup and marketing, took an 11 to 12k store tub down to about 8.5k. It’s hard to beat at that price.

For arthritis, therapy matters. Big, high flow jets that move muscle.

If you stay under 13k, Instinct is the play.

If you go over 13k, now you’re into real therapy machines. Master Twilight, Jacuzzi 400 series, Artesian Elite. That’s where you get a noticeable jump in massage quality.

There is value in going up if therapy is the priority. But if you want to stay under, Instinct still does a solid job and is way better than most retail tubs in that range.

Don’t worry about starting local. We’ll route you to the same sellers, get better pricing, and control the service side.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Do you want to stay under 13k, or stretch a bit for stronger therapy?

LSX 700 is an interesting one, but it runs a bit cramped. For what you want, I actually like the Twilight better.

You get a stronger overall massage. More of the big, high flow therapy jets. That’s what moves muscle, especially for neck and shoulders.

Twilight has those reverse molded neck jets, really solid. And the footwell carries the big jets too, so you can work feet and legs properly. For your use case, it’s just a better performing tub, and usually better priced than the LSX.

Your 84 by 84 plan is fine. That footprint works on an 8 foot slab, just don’t skimp on access around it.

If you look outside Master, Jacuzzi 400 series is the closest comp. Solid tubs, but Mexico build plus corporate ownership means tariffs, shipping, and markup. You’re paying a few grand more for similar or slightly less performance.

Artesian Elite is another option. US made, decent build, lands somewhere between Twilight and LSX. But they’ve stopped clamping plumbing lines. That matters. Mechanical clamping is the gold standard in marine and heavy industry because it works. Skipping it is a cost cut, and it hits long term reliability.

On Master dealers, don’t worry about that. They run national delivery, install, and service. You’re not tied to a local storefront.

And yes, go through us. We’ll route you to the same sellers, get better pricing, and back it with Buyer Protection. If anything drags, you call me, I handle it.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Thanks much. Can you tell me roughly how much more for the Twilight 6.2 than the Instinct, including the cover? And if i’m not ready to purchase until July, is it better to wait til September (I read somewhere that prices are better then)? And finally, with the Twilight do they actually place the tub on our pad or just drop it off at the front? Thanks so much!

Chris, here’s the straight math and timing.

Price gap first.

You’re typically looking at about a 4k to 5k jump from Instinct to a Twilight 6.2, and that’s apples to apples with delivery, install, and cover included.

Why the gap matters.

Twilight is carrying a much heavier jet package. More large high flow jets, bigger pumps, more real therapy. That’s where the money goes. Instinct keeps the same core build quality but trims the jet system to hit that lower price.

Timing.

July, August, September, doesn’t really matter the way people think.

There’s no magic September discount window. What actually happens is things slow a bit, then prices usually bump heading into year end. Meanwhile lead times start stretching into 6 to 8 weeks once the season ramps.

So waiting doesn’t really save you money, it usually just delays your install.

If you know you want it, get the order in and control your timeline.

Delivery and placement.

On a Twilight, they don’t just dump it at the curb.

It’s delivered, set on your pad, wired up depending on your setup. It’s a full install, not a drop off.

Last piece.

Our private buyer service gets you better than in store pricing, period. We’re not tied to “sales events” so we can apply discounts others can’t.

If you go Instinct, we credit that 99 back toward accessories so you don’t lose it.

If you go Twilight, that’s where we really earn it, negotiating the price down and backing you with Buyer Protection.

Keep your name out of dealer systems for now.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Yeah, go. It’s a legit show.

Master has been running that circuit in your area for about a decade. There are thousands of their tubs around you and a dedicated service team that covers that region. You’re not taking a risk on support.

That said, don’t buy there on the spot.

Those shows are built to close you fast. “Show pricing”, “last day deals”, all that. The product is good, but the environment is pressure.

Use it to see tubs, sit in the seats, play with diverters, feel the jet power. That’s where it’s valuable. Especially if you’re looking at Twilight, you’ll immediately feel the difference in those big jets.

Dealer model is fading anyway. Too much overhead baked into pricing. I can get you better numbers than what you’ll see at that show.

So go, learn, test, take notes. Keep your name out of their system. No forms, no “register to unlock pricing”. Just say you’re browsing.

Then come back to me.

I’ll route you to the same supply chain, get you a lower price, and cover it with Buyer Protection. It’s 99 bucks, you’ll save way more than that, and if anything slows down later you text me and I push it through.

What models are you planning to sit in at the show? And what's your budget?

Thank you Chris for the quick response.

So, I take it that these shows offer opportunities to wet test?

My original plan was to purchase the pure instinct, but I really wanted jets for feet and legs. Through research and gathering information, I think that twilight 7.25 is where I’m headed. Of course I want this to cost as little as possible, but my goal is to be around 13K with cover, steps, cover lifter, initial chemicals and delivery.

One concept that soured me on instinct, was no cover lifter and I think no steps included. We stayed at a rental years ago and the cover had to be removed by hand and then lifted into place after every soak, and I thought it was a pain in the ass. Again, thanks for the tips and direction!

Not sure if those shows offer wet tests, some do, some don’t.

Be careful how much weight you put on a wet test anyway.

Here’s the reality. The small, cheap jets feel really spicy in a wet test. High pressure, low flow. You feel it on the skin because that’s where your nerve endings are, but it doesn’t get deep enough to move muscle.

The big high flow jets are the opposite. They feel a bit underwhelming at first, lower pressure, but they move a lot more water. That’s what actually moves muscle mass.

Hot tubs aren’t about smashing knots like a massage therapist. It’s about using it three to five times a week, keeping muscles loose so knots don’t form in the first place. That’s where the bigger jet packages like Twilight win long term.

On the cover lifter and steps, ignore that as a deciding factor.

Manufacturers don’t make that stuff. It’s all aftermarket. Dealers bundle it and mark it up hard.

We can get you the exact same lifters, steps, chemicals, all of it, at better pricing. Either bundled through the seller or shipped direct, doesn’t matter.

So don’t let accessories push you off Instinct or into something else. That’s just packaging.

Bottom line, check out the show, but get on my private buyer service.

It’s how we get you better pricing through the same sellers, and you’re covered with Buyer Protection. If anything goes sideways, you call me, I call them, it gets handled.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

At $10,000 the only real option is Instinct spas. You're going to spend $12,000 in stores for something of a comparable build and performance.

Jacuzzi is going to be out of that price range even for a comparable build because they're made in Mexico so the tariffs and their corporate owns the big Equity investor overhead.

To make a real big difference from the Instinct you're going to go to 13k Plus

Okay. Great info. I’d go 15k. Next best suggestion?

At 15k, now you’re in the real lane.

If you’re looking for high end therapy massage, Twilight Series is the gold standard. It runs more of the large, expensive, high flow therapy jets, and they’re built like tanks.

Just outside that, you can look at Jacuzzi. The 300 series lands somewhere between Instinct, Clarity, and Twilight. The 400 series gets closer to Twilight on jetting, still a bit behind on foot and neck jets.

You can also look at Artesian Elite. Build and parts are very similar to Master. The downside, they don’t clamp the plumbing lines. Mechanical clamping is the gold standard in marine and heavy industrial because it works. Skipping that is a cost cut, and it shows up in long term reliability.

Big picture, no matter what you buy, get on my private buyer service. It’s 99 bucks. We negotiate pricing, guaranteed to save you more than that or we refund it. Average savings is around 500, sometimes more.

More important, you get Buyer Protection. If a seller drags their feet, you call me, I call them, it gets handled. Everyone in this industry knows who we are. When they know we’re involved, service gets real good, real fast.

What direction are you leaning right now, Twilight or checking Jacuzzi, artesian side by side?

No the Trinity brand is a mass Merchant quality tub. You have to go to jacuzzi Artesian Sundance something like that to get the same kind of build quality and you'll still be under the performance of a Twilight.

The best way to guarantee good service is get on my private buyer service. It'll be the best of 99 bucks you ever spend. I'll get you better pricing probably save you about $500 off your retail and back it with Buyer's Protection if you have any problems of service you hit me up I'll hit up the seller and make sure things go fast

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Best place to sell is on Facebook Marketplace. Typical depreciation is 30% first year 10% every year after so it's going to land you somewhere around the 6,000 to $8,000 mark

HI, Joel. I would love to buy your spa, but I fear shipping it from BC to Olympia, WA would be too costly. Best of luck!

Kim

David, you’re really comparing two very different things.

Master is one of the big three, and the last major privately held manufacturer. That matters. They’ve got scale, buying power, consistent parts, and a national service network. It shows up in build quality and long term ownership.

These small regional builders like West Coast Spas, it’s a different game. No economy of scale, limited purchasing power, and usually more expensive for what you actually get under the shell. Some are decent, but a lot cut corners on insulation, plumbing standards, and parts just to stay alive. You end up paying more for a smaller operation with less support if something breaks five years out.

On the L5, it’s a 110V plug and play. Just understand the tradeoff. Lower heater output, lower jet performance. When you take the cover off, especially if temps drop, it cools off fast and struggles to keep up. Fine for light soaking, not great if you want heat stability or real therapy.

Medford is milder than a lot of the country, so you can get away with 110V more than, say, the Midwest. But performance is still limited. A 220V conversion, if you can do it, is always the better long term move.

Before I give you a hard take, I need specifics. Exact model from West Coast Spas, and real written pricing on both options. Also, what’s your budget and why are you set on 110V, is it electrical constraints or just trying to keep install simple?

Kim, good catch asking before jumping on that.

Aquavia is IberSpa out of Spain. Not common here, and there’s a reason. It’s a lighter build, perimeter insulation system, not full foam. Shell is not in the same league as the better North American manufacturers. Plumbing is not the glued and clamped standard I want to see. Parts and service can get weird in the US, especially long term.

That 110V piece matters too. You’re capped on heater and jet output. Fine for a soak, not real therapy. In Washington, that also means slower heat recovery in colder months.

Now the price. $4200 sounds cheap, but it’s a cosmetic damaged import oddball with limited support. If anything goes sideways, you’re hunting parts and paying freight. That eats the “deal” fast.

Cold climate like yours, full foam and a solid shell matter. That Aquavia misses both.

On budget, if you’re trying to stay in that 5 to 6k range, you’re usually better off going used and being picky. I can look at your local market and flag anything decent. If you can stretch into that 8 to 9k range, that’s where you start seeing really solid, tank built tubs from top North American manufacturers. If you want legit therapy with bigger high flow jets, you’re typically stepping into that 12k plus range.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. If you get written quotes, I’ll route you to the same sellers, get better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection.

What model is the Aquavia and what exactly is the cosmetic damage?

Wow, thank you for the quick reply and advice! Don’t you ever sleep, Chris? LOL! Model is the Mallorca and per ad, damage is scuffs/scrapes from cover coming off in transit. I will pass on it. I had decided to get a Master Spa or an Instinct after studying this website. So I should probably just sign up for your service and take the plunge, eh?

No matter what you buy the private buyer service is worth it we always save you more than the cost of the service or we refund.

And the Virus Protection Service guarantees your service level people are going to take very good care of you when they know I'm in the mix.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

Alright Larry, you’ve got a lot of overlap and a lot of noise in that list.

You’re in Toronto, cold climate. Full foam insulation matters, no shortcuts there.

Jacuzzi and Sundance first. Same company, same Mexico build, both equity owned. That means tariff hits plus shipping, so pricing gets pushed way up. Build is generally solid, but we’ve seen some corner cutting since the buyouts, happens every time. Watch for steel frames and perimeter insulation being pitched as upgrades, they’re not. They’re cost cuts. Make sure the J408 and the Cameo are full foam and wood frame. If they are, and priced right, they can be fine. Also be aware on both, and this includes Sundance, they lean into proprietary parts. A lot of times it’s just tweaked connections and boards so you can’t use off the shelf parts. You end up paying double for replacements. It’s a knock, but they’re still top tier overall.

Beachcomber next. Good Canadian manufacturer. The Hybrid system is not. Don’t buy into it. This isn’t new tech, everyone used to put equipment outside. It died for a reason. You lose heat recovery from the pumps, and you’re pushing hot water outside the insulation envelope, which makes no sense in your climate. If power drops, that equipment can freeze fast, and that’s not covered. Make sure it has removable sides if you go that route. Performance wise, it’s weaker. Neck and foot jets are low end. Still a decent tub, I’d keep it in a top five, but skip Hybrid.

Cantabria Geneva, assuming that’s Hot Spring. This is a marketing machine. Big corporate ownership, Mexico build, same tariff and pricing problem. It’s the weakest tub on your list overall. Great story, heavy marketing, but you’re paying a premium for it. Also heavy on proprietary parts, same issue, locked in and expensive.

Now Master.

They’re the last big one not owned by equity. Privately held, US built. You’ll usually see $2k to $3k better pricing than comparable tubs because you’re not paying for that marketing overhead.

Jetting matters here. You don’t need me to tell you, big high flow jets cost real money, small jets are cheap. Look at the counts.

That Twilight TS 8.2, in my opinion, is the best massage tub on the market. It’s what I ran for years. Serious therapy, especially if you’re active.

The LSX 800 is also strong, but the Twilight line is where the heavy therapy lives.

Overall build quality, Master, Jacuzzi, and Sundance are your top tier in that group. Beachcomber just behind. Hot Spring trails.

So it really comes down to budget and how much you care about massage quality.

Give me a sense of what pricing you’re seeing on these, what you want to spend, and how important the massage is. Neck and shoulders, lower back, legs?

Where do you want the most therapy?

Thanks Chris. Both Jacuzzi and Beachcomber are going to come in just over $25K CDN with delivery and removal of old tub.

I was hoping to get everything for just over $20K. Looking for mostly back and leg for massages. Have a sauna as well so massage is important in this upgrade.

I read a lot of negative posts about Master Spa from a service perspective. Looks like most were bought thru traveling road shows. It looks like we have 1 dealer in Mississauga and another in Barrie and I trust their service would be ok.

No way those prices are way too high. Get on my private buyer service I'll definitely save you money on this Buy.

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

I get the problem, but no, chasing a shallow tub isn’t the move.

You might find something that fits you better, but then your husband is going to be sitting half out of the water and hating it. You’re trading one problem for another.

The fix is simple. Get a good quality weighted booster cushion.

They sit on the bottom, lift you up into the right position, and get your back aligned properly with the jets. Way more comfortable, and you actually get the therapy the tub is designed to deliver.

That’s a much better solution than trying to hunt down some oddball shallow tub, which usually means compromising into a lower quality build anyway. And most of those are junk, so you want to be careful there.

Give me a sense of your budget and what you’re looking at so far, and I’ll point you to some solid options.

What price range are you targeting?

I can relate to that 100%. I’ve spent a lot of time mountain biking, skiing, windsurfing. Legs take a beating.

Here’s the big takeaway. Leg massage is the hardest thing to do well in a hot tub. Most tubs, almost all of them, don’t do it well.

Loungers look like the answer, but they aren’t. They can usually only fit smaller low flow jets, so you don’t get much real therapy.

What actually works is big, high flow jets in the side of the footwell. That’s where you can sit in front of them, hit your calves, knees, feet, even slide down and get glutes and lower legs. That’s the setup you want.

On budget, 9 to 12k is tight for that kind of jet package. Realistically, you’re more in the 13 to 14k range to get strong lower body therapy.

That said, there’s a workaround. Even in a tub without great leg jets, you can sit on the side and put your legs in front of the seat jets. It works better than most loungers.

Now Instinct.

At that sub 11k range, nothing in retail beats it. Not on build, not on jetting. It’s the best value play in that band, period.

If you’re not going above 11k, don’t overthink it. Instinct is the move.

If you can stretch a bit, then we start looking at heavier therapy tubs.

On your local brands.

Arctic, I wouldn’t put it on your list. Canadian build, so you get a tariff hit. Good shell, but that’s about it. They use rebranded Rising Dragon jets, which are cheap, old thread in style. No clamped plumbing. Insulation is subpar, especially for your climate. You need full foam in the Gorge. Perimeter insulation is a sales pitch, not a performance system.

Clearwater used to be decent. Got acquired by LPI, now it’s mass merchant level with better marketing. Thinner cradle supported shells, not in the same league anymore.

Bullfrog is a bit different. Built in Utah, but equity owned now, so pricing is up. The shell is the weak point, cradle supported and thinner. JetPaks are still a gimmick with tradeoffs.

I would be looking at Jacuzzi, artesian and Master in your wider area. Master especially, they’ve got service coverage there and we can get wholesale pricing through my network.

And that’s where my private buyer service comes in.

We don’t sell tubs. We route you to the same local dealers or factory direct, get you better pricing, and back it with Buyer Protection. If anything goes sideways, you text me and I fix it. With the volume we drive, dealers take care of our clients. Simple as that.

So bottom line.

If you stay under 11k, go Instinct and don’t look back. If you want legit leg therapy, you need to stretch into that 13k plus range and target big footwell jets.

What pricing are you seeing so far, and are there specific models you’re considering?

Thanks for your insights Kris. Good to know that no model or brand is designed specifically for good leg hydrotherapy. similar to you, I found that in a friends hot Tub, by manipulating the diverters, you can create a very powerful, single jet positioned a couple inches above the seat between two of the seats. Then sitting in either of the two adjacent seats, you can put your legs up onto the seat and move back-and-forth to get a good massage up-and-down your legs. This particular Hot Tub is older and I don't know the brand.

You have been very positive about the masters brand. Which models in particular would be best for hitting the legs in a four or five person size? I see they have the master blaster feature. But it looks like it points up straight from the floor and would be great for feet, but not so much for the rest of your leg? Or are there other powerful jets in locations that would do the trick? Ideally, I would love to do a wet test on whatever spa I am considering. There must be a master dealer in the Portland area. But I can't seem to find one on Internet search and have tried twice on the master website without success so far. Are you able to direct me to a Portland dealer?

I haven't gotten very far yet with specific pricing. I did get a base price offer on a Clearwater Daytona Beach spa for $9500. Also on a bullfrog stil7 for 16,500 which is out of my range

I also saw you mention the Canadian bewell spa that has a single, very powerful jet called the volcano? But I don't find that on their website.

Bottom line so far I'd probably be OK with the instinct spa. But I am willing to consider stretching if there is really a big difference. Let me know which makes and specific models I should consider. Again, appreciate your help very much.

Twilight 7.25 or 8.25 is insane for legs. Best thing on the market, no contest. I had one in my yard for years, it’s on another level.

You can divert an entire 6 hp pump into those two big jets. Not little spicy jets, real flow. You can hit your feet, then kneel on them, then sit back and work calves, back of knees, glutes. Turn sideways, you can get hips and even low back. The amount of water moving is nuts.

You’re right on the Master Blaster look. It comes up from the floor, so yeah, feet first. But because of the flow and how you can position your body, it turns into a full leg station if you use it right. Way more versatile than it looks on paper.

If you’re staying under 10k, Instinct is the play, no question. If you’re willing to stretch into that 13k range, Twilight 7.25 or 8.25 is where the real therapy jump happens. That extra money is going straight into bigger pumps and bigger jets, not lights and speakers.

Bullfrog at 16.5k, hard pass. Clearwater at 9.5k, I’d want the exact model and build, but most of those don’t have the jet power you’re after.

On the dealer, don’t chase showrooms yet. Master’s setup is national delivery and service, dealer proximity matters less than people think. I can route you to the right seller and get you a better number without you getting buried in CRM spam.

Keep your name out of forms for now. Send me whatever quotes you get and I’ll tighten them up and back you with Buyer Protection. If anyone stalls, you text me and I fix it.

Do you want to stay under 10 with Instinct, or stretch to that 13 range for the Twilight leg power?

It sounds like I need to make the stretch to get the powerful jets I'm looking for. I think the twilight 6.2 is large enough for our purposes. I like having a lounger even if that feature doesn't do much for the legs. Our home is under construction and we won't have a pad in place until fall if that affects the timing of the purchase. Still haven't been able to locate a local master dealer or get a response from the "find a dealer" on the master website. So not able to get any sort of written quote. What next steps would you recommend?

ill email you pricing.

Will I find the pricing information on the blog here or will you send it to me in an email?

You should already have an email let me look into it

What price are we actually talking about here?

The Sundance 780 Chelsee is a Mexico build, so you’re eating a tariff hit right out of the gate. That pushes the price up for what you’re getting. On top of that, the Chelsee is a lower end jet package. Mostly small, cheap low flow jets. It’ll feel okay in a quick wet test, but it’s not a strong long term therapy setup.

The Artesian Antigua, that’s out of Vegas. You should be saving about a thousand bucks there versus Sundance, all else equal. And the jet package is better. More large high flow therapy jets, a better neck jet system, and a solid foot jet setup. From a performance standpoint, it’s the stronger tub.

Now the catch with Artesian. They stopped clamping the plumbing lines. That’s a step backward on build quality. Still an okay tub, but not as tight as it used to be.

Both Sundance and Artesian are equity owned. That adds cost, usually $1k to $1.5k baked in, and over time we see corners get trimmed. It’s just the pattern.

Oasis Covana, that’s a non brand. I wouldn’t even put it in the same conversation as the other two.

So really this is Sundance vs Artesian, tariffed Mexico build with a weaker jet package, versus a slightly cheaper US build with better therapy but a small step down in plumbing quality.

What prices did you get, and what does “not very far apart” mean in real numbers?

First off, the Legacy Enterprise is a solid tub. Clarity is a solid tub. The new Instinct line we set up for clients is also a solid tub. They’re all in the same general lane. same builder same factory

From a performance standpoint, they’re fairly comparable. The Instinct and the Clarity sit a bit above the Enterprise, but you’re not jumping into a completely different category. It’s more of a step up than a leap.

On build, they’re all running the same core standard. Full foam, self supported shells, glued and clamped plumbing, timber frames, solid acrylic shells. No junk in that group.

So what are you getting for the extra $2,500 going from Legacy to Clarity?

A bit more refinement, slightly better overall fit and finish, and a small bump in performance. It’s not night and day, but it is a cleaner package.

Now pricing.

That $8,995 number on the Legacy, thats a floor model demo price but we can do better then the price you got :-)

At $12,500, you’ve got room. No question.

Price wise, we can get you better deals on any of these through the same sellers. That’s the key. If you jump on my private buyer service, we’ll get you the Legacy or the Clarity for less than what you’re being quoted, and usually by a decent margin.

We also back it with Buyer Protection. If anything goes sideways, you hit us up and we step in and fix it.

And don’t ignore Instinct.

That’s the one we pushed the manufacturer on. We had them strip out the 30 percent marketing layer and sell direct to our clients, because all the buyers are already coming through us anyway.

That tub lands around $8,500 for a twin pump, 40 jet setup, built to my spec. It’s a strong value play and right in the middle of what you’re shopping.

If you want links, I’ll drop you into the private buyer service and the Instinct page so you can see both paths.

What did they give you in writing for the Legacy and the Balance 7, full delivered price?

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/pbs

https://www.hottubuniversity.com/newline

We ended up going with the Legacy Enterprise all in $8,500 with delivery, the upgraded cover and light package and the steps (lol). It was $1.5k less than what they were originally quoting us, so we felt pretty good about it. After sitting in both the Legacy and the Clarity, decided that there wasn’t enough special about the Clarity to justify the extra $$. We really liked the Legacy enterprise for what we’re looking for and the warranties seemed to line up better with what we are looking for in Minnesota than some of the other options above.

They’re all reasonable choices. Here’s the tea on all of them.

First, Bullfrog. That’s your lowest of the group. The JetPaks are gimmicky and problematic, and that A5L is discontinued. You’re buying something that won’t be supported properly going forward. I’d take it off the list. Even before that, I’d take it off just because of the JetPaks. Cheap jetting, cheap plumbing, looped system, and real issues keeping water clean behind those packs. They’ve had to steal water to flush back there, which cuts pressure. It’s a band aid on a bad system.

Next, Jacuzzi and Sundance. Same company, same factory in Mexico, you’re basically playing them off each other. Build quality is similar, performance is not.

Jacuzzi is the better of the two. You’ve got about five high flow therapy jets, around ten mid flows, and a few low flows. Decent mix. No real neck and shoulder system, just a couple jets under one pillow. Foot jetting is weak, basically a couple small jets at the end of the lounger.

Sundance Capri 880 is all small jets. Mid and low flows mostly, two high flows for the feet, that’s it. So the overall therapy package is noticeably weaker.

Both are Mexico builds, both owned by equity groups. That adds about $1k to $1.5k into the price right out of the gate. That’s the reality. More marketing, more overhead, and over time we see quality get trimmed.

Now Master.

Master is the only large US manufacturer still privately held. That matters. These are people building tubs, not accountants building boxes.

On the TS 240X, the jet package is on a different level. You’re looking at roughly 18 high flow therapy jets, one big primary jet, plus mid flows in the neck and shoulder seats. From a performance standpoint, it’s not close. This is the best therapy tub in your list.

I’d also have you look at the Master 6.2. A little more room, similar money, and still a strong therapy setup.

Build wise, Jacuzzi, Sundance, and Master all check the main boxes. Self supported shells, full foam, wood frames, solid control systems like Balboa or Gecko. They’re all legit builds.

The difference is value. Master is US built, no tariff hit, privately held. You’re usually saving $1.5k to $2k or more for a better jet package.

That’s the play here.

Get written quotes on all of them before you decide. Exact model, delivered, installed, cover, steps, everything.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. If you send me the quotes, I’ll route you to the same sellers, get you better numbers, and cover you with Buyer Protection. If anyone drags their feet, you text me and I fix it.

What prices did you get on the TS 240X and the Jacuzzi?

So far, received a quote of $9,995 for the 240X (which was my first choice), including delivery, cover, etc…

That's a great price... seriously we never see them that low... is it a floor model demo?

Nope, new. From David’s Home Entertainment in NC

I know them well its a solid price. tell them Chris says hi :-)

Terry,

If they’re chewing through the skirt, that’s not normal. Vinyl is not easy to get through. That tells me you’ve got serious rodent pressure, not just the tub.

On Instinct, the skirt and base are about as tight as anything in the category. It’s a vinyl cabinet, but that’s actually a good thing, it’s flexible, durable, and when it’s fitted properly it seals up well. The weak points on any tub are not the big panels, it’s the small gaps, corners, and penetrations.

That’s where they get in.

No brand is rodent proof. If they want in badly enough, they’ll find a way. The goal is to remove easy access.

What works in the real world:

Tight base pan and clean install on a flat pad, no gaps underneath.

Check around the equipment bay and any cutouts, that’s the usual entry point.

If you find small openings, pack them with steel wool and back it with a bit of spray foam. They won’t chew through steel wool, that stops most of it cold.

Keep the area around the tub clean, no shelter, no food sources, less reason to hang around.

Insulation type doesn’t solve this. They’ll nest in anything if they get inside.

Bottom line, Instinct is as well sealed as anything out there, but your situation is more about site control and closing off entry points than brand choice.

If you’re replacing that Master or any other brand , I can get you into the same sellers with better pricing and back it with Buyer Protection.

Where are you located and what size tub are you thinking next?

The mice were getting in under the vinyl corner pieces. They didn’t chew through the panels. There really is no way to deter rodents in a rural area, so it sounds like I will have to reinforce whatever I purchase. The old Master is 7’ x 7’ and sits on a 10’ x 10’ concrete slab. Anyway, it’s a 2005 and its tongue is hangin’ out. A major leak down near the bottom and it has that dreaded hard foam. The 50A breaker tripped recently but is oddly ok now. The foot Blaster pump is locked up, and the lid is thoroughly waterlogged. Our zip is 20833 and I’m looking at the Instinct - Natural. My wife and I are the only people that will ever use it.

If you're looking to stay below $10,000 there's nothing on the market that can come close to the build quality of the instinct or the performance.

And unlike most of the products you're going to see what you're wrapped up in Crazy marketing claiming that's why they're cheap this one actually has real verifiable data behind it. You see 30% of the cost of every hot tub you are looking at it is the cost of getting that hot tub in front of people. Marketing advertising branding showroom floor space Etc all add up to 30%

We have an incredibly unique scenario because after 15 years we see almost 80% of everyone that buys a hot tub come to this hot tub advice site for information. So we took the largest manufacturer in the world and we said you ship this direct to customers delivered and install it and build it to Art specifications and we'll cover it with our buyers Protection Service and we can pull that 30% right out of the price. So they pay us for the Buyer's Protection Service so we make some money you save a pile of money cuz we didn't have to spend $3,000 in marketing and you get it delivered and installed with a prime cover and built to an incredibly high standard.

The only other thing is service level and the best way in the world to guarantee good service is me. With my traffic nobody wants on the bad side of me and you're my customer and they know it if anything goes wrong you hit me up I get involved directly with the seller or the manufacturer or whatever I need to do to get it right nobody is going to mess with that, my profile is way too public me saying bad things about a product would.tank it.

There have been hundreds of these Spas sold in the last few months and since it's launch in January we have had zero unresolved customer issues. And the couple issues that did arise were very minor and immediately

heat the water, balance it then add the spa marve;l