Full foam insulation is not always best

For sure we can find lots of tubs in that size range. I would offer a couple point here first regarding smaller tubs. first off water environments are better with a bit of room to move and float around, second time buyer almost unanimously say they would not go small second time around. You also lose depth and seating comfort.

The Natural instinct is smaller than the pure but still large enough for the depth and comfort and at $7500 delivered and installed with a cover its priced amazingly well for a tub in its class.

is the 6x6 still too big?

Its a tough one for sure warranty does not cover rodent damage. have you reached out to the company that installed it?

what's the seller saying? I would think they would be liable for the repairs and it might even be worth going to court if they refuse to step up. who's the seller and what's the brand?

Burton pools and spas ft Smith ark, Hotsprings brand hot tub

Have you asked them to fix the issue? what did they say? was it their installers?

Absolutely not, this is one of the many fake brands, these guys buy spas from China redo the branding marketing and brochures and quadruple the price when they dump it in the US market. There is no scenario where buying from a guy who's buying from a rebrander who's buying from a factory is good economics, they are low end tubs all around...

what price did you see on which models?

Vortex 13 ft Aqualounge. $21,999 CAD. I was looking at MasterSpas, however, the comparable model is $10,000 more.

I would put my money somewhere more reliable like jacuzzi, master, hell even artesian would be better and yes your going to pay more but its going to last, I was working with a guy a while ago who was cutting up his 3 year old swim spa to have it removed and trying to buy a better one... And if your willing to risk the buy then cut them out and go direct to the factory that actually makes them you can buy swimmers like this for half that price on Alibaba direct...

Hydrotherapy is equal among all hot tubs. What really changes is the massage jetting.

When looking for a good massage spa its all about the size of the jets. https://youtu.be/pn2rdgv8yOc?si=NqCsXWaIPPQBw26r

Ignore and marketing bullshit like horsepower, or brand of jets the real effector and cost is the size of the jet.

Hands down the best made tub with the best most expensive jet package is the twilight series from master, close seconds would be J-400 series or artesian elite or LSX spas. Ill get bill to reach out with local options by email.

Sorry for the late response.

first off for the height issue, forget it you are never going to find a tub with the main therapy seat modeled for your size but the reality is there is a great solution, invest $100 in a good weighted cushion that will lift you up so that your back in in the right alignment for the jets :-)

You are dead right the small jets are crap, they are cheap low flow jets that do little for massage, the only thing they do is up the brochure image. For real therapy massage you need lots of the high flow large jets. they are expensive but they move the whole muscle mass and that makes a difference for long term muscle tension and they don't feel abusive. You can ignore all the marketing and sales people crap about pump sizes, special jet brands etc. its all bullshit just look at the top shot on a computer and you can see more than a hundred showroom visits. :-)

We can find you better deals Ill get bill to email you some prices for the local market.

Thank you!

There is nothing really well built in this price range, you simply cant build to a high standard and sell through a retailer at this price in fact you can even sell direct at this price. Id buy a good used unit before id by new at this price for sure, want me to look around the local market see what i can see?

Whether to get a lounger or not in a hot tub Is a valid question. Here is the T... Most second time buyer do not buy a a lounger, simple as that somewhere around 80% in our experience and that's significant. First time buyers usually buy a lounger and its because they are trying to apply our dry land experience with a water environment and they don't cross over well. In your living room a lounger is great, it supports your weight across more of your body and that's comfortable. in the water you are floating, you weigh around 15 lbs the lounger does not do much and it takes up 3 seats and crowds the footwell and you tend to float out esp with the jets on.

Bothe the Natural Instinct brand of hot tubs and the Twilight 8.2 are great tubs from a build quality standpoint, they are part of the rare group of tubs that to the top five things. Self supported heavy grade shells, Full foam open celled insulation, Glued and Clamped plumbing, reliable top end non proprietary parts, And compression fit jet housings. there are very few brands who hit this mark and all of these things are the most reliable and most expensive way to build a hot tub! https://youtu.be/pKUWLAs6OL0?si=viWGRAC69G_J6lP-

On top of that they hit the next batch of things that are the creme de la creme on the hot tub shopping list! Privately held company which makes the price better and means its people building products not accountants building boxes. Its made in the US which stricter manufacturing regulations better prices esp in this Tariff world and more accountability. They also use solid timber framing which is quieter, better thermally and longer lasting than stainless steel or galvanized steel frames in a chlorine or salt environment. They have a high repairability rating with easily sourced parts, and plug and play standard connections throughout.

Ill get Bill to reach out with pricing and options for you.

First off look at the build... Hot springs/Caldera are the same company, they are decent but made in Mexico, loaded with proprietary parts that lock you into their overpriced dealer eco system and they are overpriced, the jetting is pretty low end with mostly the small low flow jets, you need the large high flow therapy jets and look for tubs that have them in the area where your back needs it. you don't need to go to a showroom to evaluate the massage package, just look at pics on the websites. American whirlpool is lower end build, they do good shells on their higher end lines but they don't clamp the plumbing, use cheap insulation, cheap steel frames, btu the jetting is slightly better on the higher end lines. Wellis is a step above both mainly because the high automation level means better consistency and that means reliability. Nordic is a roto molded spa, a lot less expensive because its a cheap shell, it also has a low end insulation system. Marquis is probably the better choice but they were recently acquired so the prices are higher now and they stopped clamping the plumbing lines.

Master has service depots in charlotte, honestly 80% of people buy outside of dealer networks, its an antiquated model that increases the cost a lot and offers little value, if you stick to brands with standard parts and goo build any one can work on them and ignore warranty stuff it unlikely you will ever use the warranty and if the brand uses standard parts you can get them anywhere... I would always choose good build and easy repairability over anything else.

do you have pricing?

We can help there for sure, what service do you want? what's the budget?

Well I am not familiar with this particular problem in general anyone doing these modified non compliant connections, sizes, plugs etc. is so bad, proprietary systems in this industry are never a good thing for the end user and would remove a brand from my perspective purchase list. Right to repair, clean reparability and readily available OEM parts are always a better option for the end user and always a profit generating center for the manufacturer.

This was not modified plumbing. This was a standard plumbing all throughout the hot tub. And I still see it occasionally and I have to turn the jobs down. How did they get by with using 1-7/8" PVC when it cannot be located anywhere? I did not think PVC or flex PVC came in proprietary sizes. As I said, our premier hot tub repair service and parts place (which service is nationally by the way), said they had to develop a kit for strong spas due to the proprietary plumbing.

Thanks

My bad for clarification I mean modified by the builder from standard size.

Give me more info on the national company doing service please :-)

The dealer model was critical in the early years when service was tricky, parts were non compliant, and knowledge was brand specific.

The dinosaur brands maintain this allusion by making connections non compliant specifically to lock you into the dealer ecosystem, eliminated your right to repair and ability to source off the shelf parts.

The reality is much different. In most areas including yours there are servuce centers that can handle most brands. The good brands use standard build and top end parts that are interchangeable and available for next day delivery from amazon and multiple other sources. If they are also highly repairable with plug and play conections then any handi person can drop parts in.

As for warranty on any well made brand it is unlikely you will ever need warranty and if you do it will be in the first 6 months... once a tub beds in and is running it will likely do so for longer than the warranty extends any meaningfully coverage.

Also dealers add a LOT onto the price. And the truth is there are good reliable dealers and shifty bad dealers, proximity does not guarantee good service.

Fewer than 20% of hot tubs are bought through dealers... there are reliable service options almost anywere if you stick to good build standards amd high repaiability brands without propritary parts.

No Bullfrog.

Not a bad brand, US made, but equity owned. So higher prices. Also weak cradle supported shell which is a big deal. The x series is pretty good but the jet pack models are a mess... cheap low efficiency plumbing ( i can explain why if you want to deep dive) and the jet packs are a gimmicky mess with multiple issues and bandaid fixes...

What prices and models are you looking at?

No and if it is an issue hit me up. I cover that brand with my Buyer's Protection Service they actually pay for that service for you in the price of the tub. Anyone drops the ball on the service you hit me up I'll push the right buttons

They're quite a few good hot tub brands what you're looking for is good heavy-grade self-supporting shells and good full foam insulation systems. There are a number of brands that meet the right criteria but what kind of pricing are we talking about? We can get really simple absolutely tanks built to a really high standard with easy repairability starting from 8600 and we can take that all the way up to 20 grand now that down for me a bit more and I can steer you a little more cleanly.

Good starting points for brands that do all of the main expensive fabrication techniques would be jacuzzi, sundance, Master spas, Artesian and then a few outliers. Most of the stuff in the industry is cheaply fabricated delayed landfill.

The Natural Instinct has all the equipment on one side so for that install its perfect. Its also a a seriously well built simple repairable tub at an insane price. it has a solid frame and will have no issues with a lifter, i can get Guen to reach out with lifter options if you want?

That would be excellent. I have a few more detailed questions like: which side has the access panel (so I can construct the patio with the correct measurements). Is it best to just buy from the instinct website?

The panel below the touch pad has all the equipment.

Yes you can only buy from the factory direct website, and there are no options or extras, the tub is always delivered and installed, with a deluxe hard top cover and covered by my personal buyers protection service, If you do not receive Steller care after sale hit me up and ill get things moving fast :-)

Hey Brenton.

First the main location for East Coast spas, is in PA and that satellite office was by appointment only, not sure if its still up and running or not.

From the sales point I don't recommend you ever step foot in a showroom for any hot tub. The reasons are simple...

-Showrooms are not for customers to see products; they are there to allow salespeople to control the environment and maximize the chance of closing a sale, regardless of whether it's actually the best purchase for you. You're rarely going to learn anything important by looking at a spa in a showroom. All spas look great under showroom lighting. What matters is the engineering, insulation, plumbing design, component quality, and long-term reliability—none of which are obvious from simply seeing the spa, or even from having the cabinet removed.

-The pricing in a showroom is often one of the least transparent parts of the buying process. Different customers frequently receive different prices for essentially the same product, and it's difficult to know whether you're getting a genuine deal or simply responding to a sales tactic.

-Wet tests are massively overrated. On a dry sit, most spas of a similar size have very similar seating dimensions. Once the tub is filled, buoyancy changes everything, you float, shift positions, and don't sit the way you did when it was empty. More importantly, most buyers judge jet performance completely backwards. The jets that feel the most aggressive during a five-minute wet test are often the small, high-pressure, low-flow jets. They create a sharp, spicy sensation but don't move much water. The larger, high-flow therapy jets typically feel less dramatic at first, but they're the ones that move muscle mass and provide the deeper tissue therapy that actually helps with long-term muscle tension and recovery. wet tests are a closing tool nothing more.

The information you actually need to make an informed buying decision is almost impossible to find. Manufacturers don't publish meaningful details about construction methods, plumbing design, insulation systems, component sourcing, failure rates, or long-term reliability. Most salespeople don't know these details either. The reality is that a handful of companies own the majority of hot tub brands, and many tubs are built in the same factories using similar components while being marketed as completely different products. Different brands often exist to target different price points and customer demographics, not because they're fundamentally different spas. Marketing departments tell one story; the engineering reality is often very different. That's why independent research is so important—because the information that matters most is usually the information that's hardest to find.

as for service, they are pretty good, we have no issues in that area, they have delivery and service teams for that area. but the big takeaway is we can ensure you a good service level... We can get you better pricing, and put the sale through the factory it will go to the local dealer anyway with an important difference, they will know you came through us and that means they will know your covered by my buyers protection and they know that if they don't take really good care of you your gonna call me and I'm gonna call them and they do not want to have that conversation 😂🤣

ill get Bill to reach out with prices, he can also get you better deals on any of the local or national brands :-)

Any type of sanitizer or chlorine based shock will react with the salt system and cause all sorts of issues and I'd bet that is what's happening here. The only thing you should be adding to your water is a few ounces of non-chlorine shock once a week or so

The sanitizer I am using is non chlorine based and I was adding once a week - can you provide me with a brand or a link to a sanitizer .

Guens gonna reach out with options for you.

its sold out and wont be available until end of summer :-( reach back out then...

yes they do clamp lines, but there are some real differences between the two brands.

Hot springs, made in Mexico, corporate owned, loads of goofy proprietary parts that lock you into their ecosystem at much higher costs. The Flair has 4 of the expensive large high flow therapy jets the rest are the cheap small low floe jets and there is no real neck shoulder or foot jetting, its an entry level jet package more in line with the instinct, master clarity, lines.

The twilight has a cleaner parts list using the top readily available parts and is the only of the large builder that is still made in the US and privately owned. The jet package is around $2500 more expensive with mostly expensive larger high flow jets and a great neck shoulder and foot jet system.

Does the MasterSpa Twilight 7.2 meet all 5 criteria?
• A self-supporting shell
• Glued AND clamped plumbing lines
• Compression fit jets
• Quality OEM components
• Full foam open cell insulation

yes 100%

could just be from the lines, if it decreases over the next week yer good if it does not you likely have white mold and need to run the white mold protocol.

Bullfrog is at least a real brand and made in the US but it has a lower end cradle supported shell which is the main failure on the top 5 and one f the most important of the top 5.

Dominion is not even a real brand, its a rebrand of a Chinese made spa and is no where near a spa i would recommend.

what prices for which models are you seeing?

Artesian's main line is decent but they cut a lot of corners on the south seas models. it has a thinner shell, no clamps and a perimeter insulation system, the higher ends of artesian have heavier shells (critical) and full foam.

Compare it to the Vital Instinct at $8600 delivered and installed with a better cover, heavier shell, full foam insulation and glued and clamped plumbing... https://instinctspas.com/products/pure-instinct

In North America, "220 V", "230 V", and "240 V" are often used somewhat interchangeably for equipment that runs on standard residential split-phase power, Your electrician for sure know this you are fine .

Ok, thanks. One more question. A few months ago you mentioned that you were testing the saltwater module for the Instinct spas. Have you finished testing? Can you tell me when it might be available and also the cost? Thanks again.

It's tested out very well, blew us away honestly we were skeptical but it worked like a charm... $1300 base price not avail until fall.

When I received my Instinct spa, the delivery guys said they also install cover lifters. Do you recommend hiring someone to install a non-motorized cover lifter? Or is it something I can do myself? Thanks again.

if you have a screw gun its an easy install, i have good pricing through a wholesaler ill get guen to reach out on options

Thanks I appreciate it :-) Ill get bill to find you pricing for your area on the twilight, they are both great spas.

There is very little difference between the TS 8.2 or TS 7.2 other than a larger footwell and a few more jets on the 8.2

Ill get bill to reach out to you with some more information and some free stuff we can get you.

Thank you, very much appreciated!

Evelyn

Roger,

These kinds of questions are only hard if you've got something to hide.

We don't.

For 15 years I've been saying the same thing. Build a strong self supported shell. Glue and clamp the plumbing. Use compression fittings. Full foam it properly. Use quality non proprietary parts. Stay away from marketing gimmicks and focus on how the thing is actually built.

The funny part is that every one of those things is also the expensive way to build a hot tub.

The industry changed around us. We didn't.

What happened is that a huge chunk of the industry got rolled up by equity investors. You'll find multiple brands owned by the same parent company, built in the same factories, with completely different marketing stories and completely different claims about quality. A lot of what you're seeing online is marketing fighting marketing.

As for HTU, there are really two realities.

First, the people who have actually used our service tend to love us. In fifteen years I've never had an unresolved customer complaint. We do what we say we're going to do. We communicate. We help before the sale and after the sale.

Second, I'm probably hated by more industry people than I'm loved by.

Even some of the brands I like don't always love me.

Why?

Because I refuse to play the game.

I don't rotate my recommendations every year based on who's buying ads. I don't suddenly decide a tub with an unclamped plumbing system is great because somebody wrote a sponsorship check. I keep pointing buyers toward the handful of manufacturers that still do most of the important things right.

That makes a lot of friends with consumers.

It doesn't make many friends with marketing departments.

One thing you'll notice about most of the negative stuff is that it's almost always second hand.

"I heard."

"My buddy said."

"Someone online told me."

What you rarely see is someone saying, "I used HTU, they promised X, delivered Y, and here's the proof."

Because we do exactly what we say we do.

At the end of the day, don't trust me. Don't trust the brands. Don't trust the dealers.

Look at the construction.

How is the shell built?

Is the plumbing glued and clamped?

Is it full foam?

Are the parts common and serviceable?

Who owns the company?

Answer those questions and most of the marketing noise disappears.

The reason people get frustrated shopping for hot tubs is that they're trying to compare marketing stories. That's impossible. Compare construction and ownership instead, and it gets a lot simpler.

So no, I don't blame you for being frustrated. Frankly, the industry has earned a lot of that skepticism.

The good news is that there are still some very good hot tubs being built.

What brands and models are actually on your shortlist right now?

Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate the insight and your candidness. Short list is: Caldera (Reunion), which is around $15k at a local dealer. I saw the Twilight 8.25 (also ~$15k) at a hot tub expo and it seemed decent. Trying to find local dealers who have the Artesian Brand. But honestly, I feel like a squirrel with a a 10 second attention span. I see something posted about a brand (good or bad) and go down that rabbit hole, researching for 45 minutes, and then have no idea what how I started going down that path in the first place.
One thing I didn't mention earlier is that many buyers are negative on Master Spas for their advertised 5-Year Parts & Labor Warranty which results in a $300 service call by a technician (if you can find one locally). Salespeople I've spoken with about after-purchase support from Master Spas have been VERY evasive and non-specific about what the support model looks like in 2, 3 or 5 years. That's why I'm leaning towards any other brand with a local footprint and presence. I'm in Connecticut with no local showrooms/dealers apparently.

The Caldera Reunion is made in Mexico and owned by Masco, which is a massive corporation. Between the tariff hit and the corporate markup, it's overpriced. Simple as that. It's also a very dealer centric brand.

These guys use a lot of proprietary parts, and that locks you into the dealer ecosystem. Is it a great tub? No. Is it a good tub? Yes.

But look at the jet package.

They're asking around $15,000 for a tub that has five of the six expensive high flow therapy massage jets. Everything else is the cheap little low flow stuff. There's no real neck jet system, and the foot therapy package is pretty basic.

A tub with this kind of jet package should be in the $11,000 range, not $15,000.

Now compare that to the Twilight Series you're looking at.

The jet package isn't even close.

The Twilight carries a huge therapy package that's worth at least $2,500 more than what's in the Caldera. It's loaded with the large high flow therapy jets that actually move muscle mass. It has the reverse molded neck jet system and those two massive foot and leg therapy jets.

These two tubs are simply not comparable from a therapy standpoint.

The other thing people worry about is service.

Here's the reality.

The best service guarantee you can get is me.

Because of the volume we do, our collective bargaining power is massive. If I connect you with a seller and you buy a tub, I don't care what brand it is, if that seller doesn't take care of you, don't waste your time fighting them one on one.

Call me.

I'll bring roughly $30 million in annual purchasing power into that conversation, and that discussion is going to go very differently than a customer trying to get answers on their own.

The other thing to understand is that some brands are heavily dealer dependent because they intentionally use proprietary components.

Caldera, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Sundance, these brands are famous for building non standard systems that keep you tied to their dealer network. That's why having a good local dealer matters so much with those products.

Master Spas saw where the market was headed years ago.

Most hot tubs today are not purchased through traditional dealers. Because of that, Master built around service centers instead of relying on large dealer networks.

The result is that you don't see the internet flooded with service complaints about Master Spas. They're the third largest hot tub manufacturer in the world. If service wasn't happening, you'd see endless complaints.

You don't.

In fact, Master consistently ranks alongside the top brands in verified review systems. Their website reviews are also one of the few in the industry that are independently validated by a third party. Master can't filter them, remove them, or decide which ones get published. They can only respond.

For Connecticut specifically, I wouldn't be worried at all.

You have solid service coverage in your area and I don't expect you to have any issues. But if something ever does come up, reach out to me and I'll get it handled fast.

That's one of the advantages of working through us. You're not standing alone if something goes sideways.

We can get you better pricing on both those tubs do you want me to have Bill reach out to you with some cleaner pricing?

Thanks again for the info. At this point I'm still far too confused and untrusting of the industry overall. I'd love to be able to justify purchasing a Twilight 8.25, however the maintenance nightmare stories I've seen online are enough to keep me on the sidelines. I know you've stated above, "reach out to me, and I'll get it handled". It's just hard for me to accept that as a guaranteed truth. And I say that with all due respect. You can certainly have Bill reach out with some pricing info, although it's highly doubtful that I'm going to buy anything.
Thanks again.

No worries, if your uncomfortable with any aspect buy another brand we can help you buy any tub :-)

For the last 15 years we've been saying the same five things matter most in a hot tub: a fully supported shell, a proper structural frame, quality insulation, clamped plumbing, and reliable equipment. When we first started evaluating tubs against those standards there were probably 20 manufacturers that consistently checked all five boxes.

Today, that's no longer the case.

The hot tub industry has been heavily consolidated by private equity and large investment groups. Most shoppers don't realize that many of the brands they're comparing are owned by the same parent company, built in the same factories, and sold through different marketing stories. The marketing has gotten slicker, prices have gone up, and in many cases we've seen gradual cost-cutting in construction and materials.

At this point there are only a handful of manufacturers that consistently hit all five points.

Beachcomber remains one of my favorites for overall build quality, durability, and long-term reliability.

Master Spas continues to build a solid product and is one of the few companies still focused on the fundamentals that actually matter.

Jacuzzi and Sundance still produce some excellent models, but you need to be selective. They're now built in Mexico, and we've seen some construction changes creep in over the years. Certain models still meet our standards, while others have moved toward perimeter insulation systems and lighter structural components that I'm not as enthusiastic about. You need to look at the specific model, not just the badge.

There are also a couple of manufacturers right on the fringe.

Bullfrog's X Series is actually a pretty good tub. My issue isn't with the overall build quality—it's that the shell isn't fully cradle-supported. That's one of our five core requirements because it dramatically improves long-term shell reliability. Eliminating that support structure saves money in manufacturing, but it isn't something I'd personally compromise on.

Artesian builds a lot of things right, but they don't consistently clamp their plumbing lines. In regulated industries like marine, industrial processing, and commercial mechanical systems, clamped plumbing is considered the gold standard because it reduces the likelihood of leaks over the life of the product. It's a small detail that makes a big difference over 10–20 years of ownership.

The biggest factor in what I'd recommend is your budget and where you're located.

Tell me roughly what you're looking to spend and what part of the country you're in, and I'll point you toward the best options available in your area.

We don't sell hot tubs. What we do is connect buyers with reputable dealers, help them avoid the games, and back them with our Buyer's Protection Service. Because dealers know we're involved, we typically get straight pricing without the usual back-and-forth, inflated accessory packages, or unnecessary upgrades.

Our buyer group now assists with nearly $30 million in annual hot tub purchases, which gives us a lot of leverage when it comes to keeping dealers honest and making sure customers are treated properly before and after the sale.

What's your budget range, and where are you located? Also, have you received any pricing yet? If you have, send it over and I'll tell you whether you're getting a fair deal.

We are in Colorado, northeast of Denver. Our budget is currently still being decided. I haven't talked to any dealers yet. Reading your buyer's guide was part of my initial research into making sure we get a hot tub that will out-live the HELOC we are going to get to pay for building the addition/enclosure and hot tub itself. We are not looking for an over-the-top party barge. My wife misses living near the ocean and wants to some water to enjoy. I want a place to relieve the aches and pains from work. We want comfortable use year-round (summer and winter) .

Ill get Bill to reach out to you with local options.

OK new the only really well built tub in the $7 or under class is this: https://instinctspas.com/products/natural-instinct

This is a good Used tub in your area and a good price if its running and in good condition. https://www.facebook.com/share/18uRB88AkC/

Thanks for the recommendation. I've since leaning more toward the new market for more security in the purchase. With a budget adjustment of 10-12k,
What are some options you would recommend? 4 seats with a lounger would be preferred...

There are a lot of good tubs in that price range and a lot of junk :-)

Instinct is the best bang for the buck, then Clarity spas, Artesian Island series, and jacuzzi 300 series are all pretty solid choices.

Ill drop you into my new beta program for buyers assistance, bill will reach out with local pricing and options through the local sellers.

Thanks! Looking forward to the info.

Looking forward to it, thanks!

So Aspen isn't a badly built Spa but it's also not top and it's overpriced. These small Regional manufacturers can't compete anymore they pay a lot more for parts and they don't have economy of scale. That means you either overpay for a basic build or you overpay for a high-end build either way it's not The Sweet Spot.

Also you say one to three person tub. Second time buyers often say they wish they had more space and the number one check thing second time buyers do is buy bigger tubs. It's mainly because water environments are both space and moving around so if you've got the space rethink the three seaters they're all so not the sweet spot price wise. The best bang for the buck is your seven Footers they're the most commonly built.

Give me an idea of what your budget is?

Also what's important massage therapy ir soaking time?

Are you size restricted for the three-seater or do you have room to fit a 7-footer?

7footer

Bang for the buck the Instinct is impossible to touch for a very simple reason... Every other tub you see has 30% of its price spent on marketing, advertising, branding and dealer showroom space, that's the cost of getting a tub in front of enough buyers.

We leveraged the insane traffic we get organically and teamed up with the biggest builder in the US to offer it direct t consumers, delivered and installed with service. and we were able to strip out the 30% marketing cost... it went from $11-$12k in store to $8600 overnight :-)

https://instinctspas.com/

To get the same build quality and jet package you need to go to Clarity, J-345, X7 all in the $11-$12k price.

Now if you want crazy high end jetting then Twilight, or J-400, Artesian elite are good options in the $13k+ range.

Do you want me to get bill to reach out with firm pricing?

I am 65 year old widow, living alone. Do not get many visitors. A 3-4 person hot tub would do well for me based on what I have looked at so far and your schooling, but $$ + quality and maintenance costs will be deciding factors. Budget wise I would like to come in around $8000 max for total package if possible. My concerns beyond your recommendations are easy entry/exit and the jets are gentle massage, not deep tissue force. I reside in Missouri, so also want a unit that withstands cold spells well. I will definitely research the Instinct spas. I appreciate your web site and advice in this matter. Thank you.

Okay so Cal Spa in general is a reasonably well-built product the weakness is the shell is a regular cradle supported shell. I know they have that big picture about the fiber steel but I was at the factory, I can tell you that that steel is so thin and flimsy it's there for nothing other than the brochure.

Later it also uses a cheap perimeter Installation System so it's not great at heat retention. However I do believe they still offer a full foam upgrade but be careful because they need to be encapsulating the plumbing in open celled foam and they say on their website they use high density to support the plumbing that's very dangerous if they're really covering their plumbing and high density foam it makes an incredibly difficult to find and repair leaks.

As far as the massage therapy this is definitely low to mid end all of the neck and shoulder jets are the small cheap low flow jets. There's only three of the expensive high flow therapy massage Jets those are the large Jets you see at the base of the lounger and the bottom of the main therapy chair. If you're really looking for high-end massage you want to see those large high flow therapy massage jets in areas of your body that you want massage.

Tubs like this should be available in the marketplace with as good or better jet packages better insulation and better shells in the $8600 to $13,000 mark.

What kind of price are you getting from the seller?

Thanks for the advice. We would be paying $9,949.99 for the CalSpa Pacifica Plus model #PPZ-752L.

$9500 is decent for the tub, the shell is upper mid, but insulation is lower end unless you upgrade to the full foam (~$500) but also very few of the larger expensive high flow jets. I toured the factory a few years back.

Comparable tubs:

Vital Instinct: Better shell, better insulation, better jet package, $8600 delivered and installed to the backyard with national service and our Buyers protection service.

Bullfrog X-7 similar shell, better insulation Vs. Calspa quality wise. ~$10k
Clarity spa ~$12k
J-345 ~$12K

Okay first of all there seems to be some misinformation here. The diverter valves you can replace the entire assembly for around $80. Or just replace the internals for $40. If it is just the internals you don't need a service tech for it you literally unthread the top cap by hand when the tub is shut off, pull out the internals, and drop in the new internals and tighten the top ring by hand.

And those orings you had replaced and the fact that your internals need replaced points more to water chemistry. Do you know which chemicals the company that comes and services your job is using? Are you using chlorine tablets?

The O-rings on the pump unions and heater unions of that tub are the same material as every tub in the world.

If you're finding that your tub is getting too hot in the summer it's because it's really efficient at recycling the waste heat from the motor. There are vents in the side of the tubs that can be open and closed so you close them for the winter and you open them for the summer. If there's not vents in your cabinet they can easily be installed cheaply.

I don't think I would be replacing this tub the main thing is the shell it's not leaking Etc is what makes a tub repairable. You have some very minor issues they should not be costing you very much money to fix.

Try and get me a proper list of the chemicals they're using brand and type.

Thank you... I will certainly find out what chemicals they are using. We keep the Frog-ease floating ball in it at all times as well. My husband said they weren't hte diverter valves when I asked him but I will call them myself and ask as well and get back to you.

Awesome ley me know :-)

Nope.

Just checked the log this is the first post from that email. Sorry dude something must have glitched...

The Bueno Jersey is technically built by Wellis in Hungary. That's the brochure answer.

The reality is it's still a budget spa built to hit a price point. We worked with Bueno for a while and sent plenty of customers their way when people were shopping in that sub $7k range. For the money, it's honestly as good as a lot of what's floating around in that category.

But let's not candy coat it.

You're still looking at a cradle supported shell, perimeter insulation, no plumbing clamps, and support after the sale has been pretty rough. The biggest issue isn't usually the tub itself, it's getting help when something goes wrong.

If you're shopping in that price range, I'd probably spend my time looking for a clean used premium tub before I jumped on a new Jersey. A five or six year old quality build with a self supported shell, full foam insulation, and clamped plumbing is often a better long term buy than a brand new budget spa.

Give me your zip code and I'll take a look at what's available around you and see if there's anything worth chasing. What's your zip code?

And whats the max budget?

zip code 78633; budget 7K or less

At $7k you have to get a smaller single pump unit built super well like the instinct spa line or you have to get 2 pump 40 jet units built to a low standard like the Bueno.

or used units... do you want me to find some good used tubs around your area?

Robert,

If your goal is to buy one hot tub and have the best shot at getting 20 years out of it with the fewest headaches possible, the list gets surprisingly short.

The only two manufacturers left that consistently hit all of the major build quality criteria we care about are Master Spas and Jacuzzi. Both use self supported shells, full foam insulation, quality components, and proven manufacturing processes.

Between those two, Master Spas is our preferred recommendation.

The reason is simple. They're privately held and built in the USA. That means less marketing overhead, no equity investors taking a cut, no Mexico tariff exposure, and generally better value for the money. You end up paying for more hot tub and less corporate overhead.

Jacuzzi is still a very good product. I have no problem recommending them. The challenge is that you're often paying an extra couple thousand dollars for brand marketing, distribution layers, and Mexico production costs. The tub is good, the value proposition is usually weaker. Also they alter the connection points on the balboa system to prevent you buying off the shelf versions and locking into thier costly ecosystem for meaningless propritary alterations.

After those two, there are a few brands that get close but miss one or two of the big build quality factors. Artesian, Marquis, and Bullfrog's X Series would fall into that category. Not terrible products, just not as complete from a long term ownership standpoint.

Before I point you toward a specific model line, tell me three things:

1. What's your target budget?

2. Is this mostly relaxation, family use, or serious massage therapy?

3. If therapy is important, what areas of the body are you trying to target, lower back, neck and shoulders, hips, or something else?

Thank you for the information.

To answer your questions: No specific target budget, just a target quality of the product.
Relaxation, massage
As for therapy, all of the above.

Robert,

There's actually a huge range here.

The good news is you do not need to spend $20,000 to get excellent build quality anymore.

A few years ago we worked with the largest hot tub manufacturer in the US on what became the Instinct line. The idea was simple. We already had the audience and traffic, so we stripped out the dealer markup, advertising costs, showroom overhead, and all the options theater that drives pricing up.

The result is a tub that checks all of the major build quality boxes we care about, self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, full foam insulation, Balboa controls, quality OEM components, and national service coverage, for roughly $8,500 delivered and installed with the cover included.

If you're comparing similar sized tubs and similar jet packages, an Instinct is competing directly against things like a Jacuzzi J345, Bullfrog X7, or Artesian Island Series.

The difference is those tubs are typically purchased through traditional retail channels, so pricing usually lands somewhere between about $10,500 and $13,000 depending on market and dealer.

That's one reason dealer sales keep shrinking. Consumers are figuring out they don't necessarily need a showroom in the middle.

Now, if your goal is maximum therapy and massage performance, that's where the conversation changes.

The secret is not pump horsepower, magic jet technology, or whatever marketing story happens to be popular this year.

Therapy comes from large high flow jets.

Big jets move muscle mass. Small jets are cheap. That's really the whole game.

When you move into products like the Master Spas Twilight Series, Jacuzzi 400 Series, or Artesian Elite Series, you're paying for substantially larger and more expensive therapy jet packages. That's where the real step up happens.

Expect that category to run roughly $13,000 to $20,000 depending on size and market.

For someone focused on relaxation, massage, long term ownership, and quality over price, I'd personally narrow the discussion to:

Instinct, best overall value.

Master Spas Twilight, best therapy value.

Jacuzzi 400 Series, good product but usually higher priced for what you get.

Give me an idea which direction appeals to you more, best value with top build quality, or heavier therapy with the larger jet packages?

Best value with top build quality. I see the Instinct website. How is site prep and installation handled?

Site prep isn't handled, even if we set up a buy from a local dealer they are going to just sub contract the ground prep and electrical out and mark it up :-). Some dealers will package that up but its at a cost... The best bet is hit a couple local landscapers for a basic patio stone base quotes and a couple electricians for quotes on the electrical.

With Instinct spas Its delivered and installed by a dedicated crew. That's key because the problem with curb side deliveries is twofold... They go through regular LTL transport routes and that means on and off of trucks and in and out of multiple warehouses on its journey and that means heavy damage percentages from handling, and worse you have to get it to the final spot and assume liability for damage on that hard to handle last 100 ft.

With Instinct it is shipped through full truckloads direct from Master Spas to the delivery depot then taken by a special hot tub delivery team directly to you and that includes installation into your yard to your final site and liability is on them :-)

Plus with INSTINCT ITS COVERED BY NATIONAL SERVICE CENTERS AND BACKED BY MY PERSONAL BUYERS PORTECTION SERVICE. That's critical because if you have any issues on service instead of a one on one battle with the seller, you hit me up and ill swing my big stick and get them going ;-)

Ill get Bill to reach out with options for pricing on the other units as well...

So Clearwater I wouldn't really recommend any more they used to be a really good tub but they were acquired LPI is the parent now and that just means fancy marketing and reduced fabrication. Verilux Alibaba if the price is super low might be a decent option but you're in the land of cradle supported shells no clamps on the plumbing, Low End insulation packages, cheap steel frames, etc etc

Give me an idea what kind of budget you trying to stay within for which sizes Spa.

Hey James.

The Twilights are solid reliable spas, Master builds good hot tubs and the fact that they are the last of the top 5 that is still privately held, and still making in the US speaks volumes about them.

We beta tested the new salt system and honestly it blew us away, we were skeptical as previous salt systems we tested were unremarkable. In a year of testing with a tub with moderate to heavy usage we had to adjust water chemistry 4 times... that's it... Its 30% lower salt than the next best unit but the real game changer is the on demand aspect, all the other salt systems like you get on a hot Springs or comparable hot tub are dumb timer based systems, so you get yo-yo chemistry but this on tests the water automatically and adjusts sanitizer based on real time levels...

We can arrange a twilight for you through the local sellers, and guarantee you better pricing and better service because we will back it with our buyers protection. simply put if you have issues with a seller we hook you up with don't go one on one with them, hit me up and Ill deal with them :-)

Ill get bill to reach out with numbers.

Thanks and appreciate the quick reply. I meant the 8.25, the 5 slipped off I guess. We found the lounger was a bit uncomfortable and likely better for taller people. Thanks again!

For Airbnb and short term rentals, the game is durability and repairability.

You want a tub built with common, readily available parts that can be overnighted from Amazon or any major supplier. When a hot tub goes down at a rental, it costs you bookings, reviews, and money.

Bullfrog A7 would be a hard pass for this application. Too many proprietary parts, a lower end cradle supported shell design, and you're paying luxury pricing for a tub that simply doesn't justify it from a build quality standpoint. At $14k plus, there are much better places to put your money.

The Aquasolis Cove is another one I'd avoid. It's essentially mass merchant quality. No clamped plumbing, lighter insulation, and not the kind of build I'd want supporting heavy renter use at 6,000 feet in Colorado.

Nordic is actually okay at $6,500. The issue is the 84 inch round design. Round tubs sound great until you use them. Foot room is terrible, seating is cramped, and there is a reason almost nobody builds round tubs anymore. I'd strongly rethink the round layout.

Maple is okay-ish.

American Whirlpool is lower end mass merchant quality. Cheap steel frame, perimeter style insulation, no plumbing clamps. Not where I'd go for a rental property.

Patio Splash is just a rebrand, not a manufacturer. I would stay far away from that route.

For Colorado winters, even in a dry climate, you want a strong shell, full foam insulation, and reliable glued and clamped plumbing. That's what keeps operating costs down and prevents service headaches.

The best fit I see right now is Instinct Spas. Delivered and installed around $8,600 for a 7 foot model. Self supported shell, glued and clamped plumbing, common service parts, easy to repair, and backed by national service. For a rental property, it's honestly one of the toughest values on the market right now.

Keep your name out of dealer databases for now. If you get written quotes, I can route you through the same sellers, get better pricing, and back it with Buyer Protection.

What size footprint are you working with?

Wow thanks!
Plenty of room in both scenarios 14' + square. We are looking at 5-6 comfy seat count (no loungers).
How does Nordic non-round tubs look to you for an option?

And for our personal use (90% time for 2 adults; no kids) and other times with friends and families (occasional 15-20 days max per year). Any recommendations? Other brands that we can go see to compare with Infinity?

So in this application the instinct is going to come in at 8600 delivered and installed with the premium grade cover. It's hard to touch at that price for a twin pump 40 jet unit with the kind of build quality that unit offers.

Comfortable tubs in that build quality range should be Jacuzzis j345, Master Spas Instinct line, artesians Island series.

If you're going to go to Nordic now you're talking rotationally molded shells personally it's not what I'd recommend for a heavy use rental unit the shells are a lot less expensive and less durable it also has a lower end insulation package. If we decide we're going to go to the rotationally molded shell root check out getaway hot tubs, their rotation molded as well which brings the price down but again all these tubs are going to be purchased through retail outlets and that's going to crack your price back up.

There's only one reason that instinct can sell it the price it does and that's you and me:-) we put out a manufactured challenge about 5 years ago for a manufacturer to offer a solid crazy high-end build without the bells and whistles delivered and installed Factory Direct and that's how Instinct came into play. You see we get 80% of everyone that's buying a hot tub coming to us before they shop normally 30% of the cost of your hot tub is the cost of getting people in front of the unit we got to cut all that shit out and that dropped that tub down from 11 to 12,000 in stores to its current price of 8,600.

It's also back in my Buyer's Protection which is critical for a rental install. Anyone drags your feet or stalls you hit me up I'll push the buttons and make shit happen fast. Nothing can guarantee you a better after sales support network than a big stick LOL

Platinum spas in a Virtual manufacturer they buy hot tubs from China, rebrand them to "Platinum spas" and then sell them... Its the worst scenario, you are buying from a dealer who bought from a middleman, who bought from a manufacturer... They are thinner cradle supported shells cheap steel frames The 304 stainless steel frames are ultra low grade stainless steel, no where near the durability of a 316 marine grade stainless and with chlorine, bromine or salt it will corrode. also low end insulation, what price did you see for which models and what is your budget?

The plastic pans are a mixed bag, and in my opinion they're one of the most overrated upgrades in the industry.

If the tub is installed properly on a concrete pad or patio stone base with good drainage, the tub is already sitting on something far stronger and more durable than any plastic pan. There really isn't much benefit to adding another layer underneath it.

The sales pitch is usually that a plastic pan keeps rodents out and protects the frame. The reality is rodents rarely come through the bottom. They almost always get in through gaps around the skirt and equipment area. A pan doesn't magically solve that problem.

The bigger issue is exactly what your dealer mentioned. If you develop a small leak, water can collect inside the pan and sit there. That can make leak detection harder, and standing water is never your friend around any frame material.

As for the wood frame itself, I actually prefer quality wood framing over steel. Steel sounds great in a showroom, but chlorinated or brominated water is extremely aggressive. Once you get a leak or constant moisture exposure, even galvanized steel eventually corrodes. I've seen chemical exposure chew through galvanized coatings and create problems that people never expected. Wood handles that environment surprisingly well when the tub is built correctly and installed on a proper base.

The only time I'd seriously consider a bottom pan is if you're placing the tub in a poorly drained area where water routinely pools underneath, or in an unusually wet installation where keeping splash and ground moisture away from the bottom is a real concern.

For a normal installation on concrete or patio stone with decent drainage, I would save the money and skip it. That's not a feature that would influence my buying decision.

What model hot tub are you looking at?

I’m putting the hot tub, twilight ts6.2, on a painted composite deck and I don’t know if the wood used in the base would last 20 years. I know they paint the exposed wood but will that last. If the wood does rot, is that something a hot tub tech can replace?

If its a composite deck yer fine, and don't bother with the upgraded base unless its basically the same cost because you wont need it in this scenario, decks drain well and wont accumulate water, the base is already a heavy polycarbonate sheet.

Did you buy the tub already? do you have pricing yet?

We have not bought a tub yet, but we've been to 4 dealers and seen a lot of different models. We are hoping some deals will come soon so we can get one and have enough money to replace the decking boards with composite. Also adding posts under the deck for more support. We gave our old Jacuzzi to my son, his wife, and his kids, as we are downsizing the hot tub for just the two of us.

Which models and what kind of pricing do you have give me an idea where you're at I'll see if we can do better for you through the same sellers.

It's really hard to know exactly what's broken without seeing a photo.

From your description, it sounds like you're talking about the cover lifter brackets that attach to the side of the tub. If those plastic covers popped off, that's usually cosmetic. If the actual mounting screws pulled out or failed, then yes, the lifter generally needs to be fastened back to the cabinet.

If the original screws seem too weak, you can usually move up to a slightly larger diameter screw for a better hold. Just be careful with the length. You do not want a longer screw that could reach plumbing, wiring, or insulation behind the cabinet.

My advice would be to remove the bracket, inspect what's behind that section of skirt, and confirm there's nothing in the way. Then use a similar length screw with a heavier gauge if needed.

As for an easier cover solution, not really. Most cover lifters require mounting hardware attached to the spa. They're still the easiest way to remove and replace a heavy Jacuzzi cover by yourself. Going back to a loose cover without a lifter usually ends up being more work, not less.

Ill get Bill to reach out and see what he can do.

Thank you. I will be looking to hear from Bill.
Jeff

How about I send you an email and help you make sense of it all? No cost to you

Yes please, we would love to get started on it

You don't need a sequestering agent with Spa Marvel and the best course of action is to minimize chemicals to as few as possible so I would pass on it.

Get your alkalinity right first and, if it's a little high, leave it. It will naturally fall over time and pH reducer will reduce it as well. I routinely see mine at around 200 with no issues. What's your level?

For hardness, anything over 150 is fine. You only need to Mae sure the water is not trying to steal calcium from your plumbing components

no worries first what's wrong with the tub?

There is a single dealer that covers the entire western seaboard and they do have service and install teams all up and down the coast. I know that they have at least a couple in the Seattle area. What kind of pricing are they giving you on it?

How about I send you an email? We can make sure you get first class service and the best price

Both are fantastic massage spas and top notch builds but the Legend is more about the flash and fancy. The Twilights are the king of the hill when it comes to muscle massage

Sent you an email

Im not aware of landscapers in the area your seller should be able to help.you.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for reaching out, and I'm glad the reviews helped.

If Master Spas is your benchmark, the two brands I'd look at first locally would be Jacuzzi and Artesian. Neither is an exact match, but they're probably the closest in overall build quality and ownership experience. Jacuzzi would be my first alternative, Artesian would be second. The right answer really depends on the specific models because jet packages can vary a lot, and that's where a lot of the real value is.

One thing I'd challenge is the idea that a local dealer automatically means better service or a better ownership experience.

That's largely a myth in today's market.

A lot of buyers assume a dealer 20 minutes away guarantees fast service, but there are plenty of local dealers that are difficult to work with after the sale. Likewise, having a dealer nearby doesn't necessarily get you better pricing. In many cases, it does the opposite because you're paying for the overhead of multiple storefronts, sales staff, and regional dealer networks.

Master took a different approach years ago.

The Pennsylvania dealer you're referring to handles a huge portion of the East Coast and does roughly 20 to 30 times the volume of a typical hot tub dealer. Instead of building a dense dealer network, Master invested heavily in delivery, installation, and service infrastructure. They recognized early that most buyers research and purchase remotely, and that maintaining large dealer networks adds cost that ultimately gets passed on to customers.

The result is that I can typically arrange delivery, installation, and service support in areas that don't have a nearby Master showroom. The physical dealership may be 3.5 hours away, but the people delivering, installing, and servicing the spa are generally local to your area.

The other thing I'd consider is how you protect yourself after the sale.

The best predictor of a good ownership experience isn't dealer distance, it's accountability.

That's where my Buyer Protection program comes in. If I help arrange the purchase, the dealer knows you're one of my clients. They also know that if something isn't handled properly, you're going to call me, and then I'm going to get involved. After 15 years in this industry, dealers generally understand that's a conversation they'd rather avoid.

So if you're considering Jacuzzi, Artesian, Master, or anything else in your area, send me the exact model numbers and any written quotes you receive. I'll break down the build quality, compare the jet packages, tell you where the real value is, and help make sure you're getting the right tub at the right number.

What brands and models are available closest to you?

Aquasolus is a Chinese rebrand by a company out of the UK Called Superior wellness... This is the worst scenario, cheap tub you can buy on Alibaba for $3k then some asshat imports them creates new names and marketing, then redistributes them too importers who then redistribute them to Us sellers... It is not even a real manufacturer...

what is the budget for this project?

Looking for a 6 or 7 seater (no lounger) and would like to keep the project under $15K

Hi Allan,

Good question.

The Instinct uses a top load 50 sq ft filter, so access is simple and you don't have to dig around inside the cabinet to service it.

On the motors, don't let anyone confuse quality with size. The pumps in the Instinct are the same level of quality you'd expect in this category. The difference is that the Twilight is a crazy high-end end therapy spa. It runs larger pumps and more big high flow therapy jets, which is why it delivers a stronger massage and costs more.

The better comparison for the Instinct is tubs like the Jacuzzi J345, Master Spas Clarity Series, Bullfrog X Series, or Artesian Island Series. Those models typically retail in the $11,000 to $13,000 range through traditional dealers.

The Twilight sits a level above that. You're generally looking at roughly $13,000 to $15,000 because you're paying for a substantially larger therapy package, not because the pumps are somehow better quality.

If you're after the best value, the Instinct is tough to beat. If your main goal is deep therapy and muscle relief, that's where the Twilight earns the extra money.

Are you looking for maximum therapy, or the best value for the money?

And I can get you great pricing on any of these tubs if you want I'll get Bill to reach out to you with quotes and offers let you know what's going on in your local market.

Hi Arend,

If that 2023 Twilight 7.2 is truly in excellent condition, running properly, and you can see it full of water with everything working, then $7,500 is about exactly what I would expect it to be worth.

Personally, I would not spend an extra $9,000 just to get a warranty.

People tend to overvalue hot tub warranties. When you break down the actual value, you're talking maybe a couple hundred dollars a year in expected benefit. The reality is most owners never make a major warranty claim.

You're also comparing it the right way.

A used Toyota with a strong reputation is often a safer buy than a brand new vehicle from a manufacturer with a weaker track record. I look at Master Spas much the same way. They are one of the better built tubs on the market today. Self supported shell, full foam insulation, glued and clamped plumbing, compression fittings, common industry parts. The fundamentals are all there.

The other thing I like is that Master uses widely available components. Pumps, heaters, controls, jets and plumbing parts are easy to source and competitively priced. You're not getting trapped into proprietary parts that only one dealer can supply.

That doesn't mean you skip due diligence.

I'd want to see it filled, heated, circulating, and running through every pump speed and jet zone before handing over money. I'd also budget for a professional mover. A bad move causes more hot tub damage than normal ownership ever will.

If the tub checks out, I'd be very comfortable buying that 2023 at $7,500 rather than spending $16,500 on a new one.

That said, if you do decide you'd rather compare new pricing, we can usually do better than $16,500 through the same sellers. I can have Bill reach out and get you proper pricing on a new Twilight 7.2 so you can compare apples to apples before making the decision let me know if you wanna dig deeper into new tub pricing.

Quick question, have you seen the used tub running and heated in person yet?

For sure I will have bill reach out to you he can get you to the right number.

if its a small area you can use a can of standard spray foam, or you can pack lightly with fiberglass pink.

Hi Michelle,

You're not alone. This is an extremely confusing industry right now.

The biggest problem is that private equity firms have bought up a huge chunk of the hot tub market. In many cases, one parent company owns eight or nine different brands. You walk into different showrooms thinking you're comparison shopping, but often you're really shopping against the same company with different marketing, different sales pitches, and slightly different cosmetics.

It's a bit of a mess.

The other challenge is that a lot of tubs look great on a showroom floor, but the build quality underneath can be completely different. There is a lot of low end construction out there right now, cradle supported shells, lighter insulation systems, plumbing without clamps, and proprietary parts that can become expensive headaches later.

For therapy and massage, the biggest thing to understand is that large high flow therapy jets cost real money to build. A lot of tubs use dozens of smaller jets that feel impressive during a quick wet test, but they don't move as much muscle tissue over the long term. That's one reason you see such large price differences between models.

The good news is there are still some very good options depending on your budget.

If you're looking for the best value, I'd be looking at something like the Instinct line.

If therapy and massage are your top priority, then I'd be looking at the Master Spas Twilight Series because it carries substantially larger therapy jets and pump packages.

Before I point you toward specific models, I need a little more information.

What's your budget range, and are you looking for a lounger or an open seating layout?

Yes $9500 a good price for a 2025 LH 7 demo floor model hot tub. Sundance comparable model would be a Peyton. But make sure it still has the full foam package and the wood frame, They are made in Mexico since they got acquired by and equity firm and the now carry big shipping and tariff hits right now and we have seen them cutting corners on production of some models to offset the costs :-(

But even better would be the Instinct Vital Model, its a master as well and built to the same spec but it beats both those on price and jet packages, it has a more of the expensive high flow jets and a great neck and shoulder reverse molded quad 3.5" mid flows... and because we stripped all the dealer markups and marketing and floor space you can get it new for $8600 delivered and installed and serviced by Atlas, you have to buy it online through the factory site and Atlas will still get the profit from the deal but you cant order it through the store its exclusive for our customers. and its covered by my buyers protection so if you had any unresolved issues we will deal with the seller for you :-)

https://instinctspas.com/products/vital-instinct

You have service there for any brand with a standard build, the only brands you need dealers for are the ones that intentionally make parts wierd so they can lock them into their eco system and make bank off you for repairs :-)

Jacuzzi and Nordic are solid choices, do you have pricing on models yet?

No we aren’t that far along in the decision process, haven’t even visited a store yet. It looks like it maybe a late summer or fall project. Especially appreciate the Costco review it was nice to see our suspicions about build quality were confirmed. Keep up the good work &Thanks

No worries, if you want I will drop you into our new beta Private buyers service, Bill can reach out and negotiate better pricing through the local sellers and definitely get you better pricing.